A PLEA FOR ALL OF US!!!

thehammer1985 · Feb 2, 2019

To all of my fellow reefing brethran and sisters,

This may be a very unpopular post, but it has to be said.

Over the past 15 years we have been blessed with vast improvements in our hobby (probably longer but that is my time frame). The equipment has become amazing and the corals and fish available have become unreal.

This is where it gets sketchy and real.

Inflation is a real thing I get it... What I dont get is this insistent need to get the latest and greatest coral regardless of the price tag. I get it you have the money and wanna be the first to own the new homewrecking bouncing skull masterpiece shroom, but has anyone realized by us showing our willingness to fork out 800-2000 for a dime sized frag has effectively ruined pricing across the board?

Take a second and look back to anyone who has been doing this for any length of time. Anyone who has been in the hobby for 5+ years have been watched this happen. Collection practices haven't changed that much, the inflation rate for the dollar averages 1.9% a year. we've watched prices in our hobby go 20-50% in a matter of years.

This doesnt just apply to high end corals. Us paying extreme top dollars is even tipping the scale on lower end corals.

I can about guarentee if enough of us stop paying these egregious prices the prices will fall. I know alot of you out there are like "that's stupid", or "if it's too expensive dont buy it". Its that attitude though that has put us where we stand.

This is just my opinion, and I plan to play the part I have chosen vendors now that arent into gouging even when an amazing peice comes across the table.

Hopefully no one is too mad at me but I felt like venting. That is all thank you for your time.

khushtram · Feb 2, 2019

The problem is... if you don’t pay for it there is always someone out there that will ! Some more fortunate than others are blessed financially and will not mind to fork out thousands of dollars for a dime sized mushroom.

flchamp89 · Feb 2, 2019

Good post to which I agree. Getting everyone on the bandwagon to bring change would be a challenge. Been keep glass boxes for about 40 years but it's been 15 yrs since I had a SW tank. It's shocking what it costs. Not just the inhabitants but the equipment as well.

kichimark · Feb 2, 2019

Thank you for sharing how you feel and see things progressing. I have been in the hobby since the 90's and I resonate with much of what you say. The thing is, prices on everything is going up in every aspect of our life and couple that with the culture of having the best AND the Indo ban...it can lead to this. It might even get worse as times goes on...who knows?

The only thing I can do is buy what I like, grow it out and offer frags at better prices. I have even given away corals to new members (especially if they have kids and they enjoy it). I remember meeting the guy who originally named the utter chaos paly when they sold for 200pp. I didn't buy them for that price and bought other stuff and just waiting for the price to go down on those paly's. Now I can get them for 10-15pp all day long where I am. So in a way, some corals may go down if they are good growers.

TheHarold · Feb 2, 2019

Not all corals are $2000 each. You can find corals for $10-25 still, just like before. Why shouldn’t I be allowed to list a coral for $2000? Nobody has to buy it. But buyers set the prices; if they value a 1/2” stub for 2k, that’s what it sells for.

These sort of posts come up constantly and IMO are silly. If you look at the corals available years ago, it haven’t changed too much. You can still get your hammer corals, Duncan’s, frogspawn, and softies at $10-20 a piece. Same thing with polyps.

I think the problem is people feel entitled to uncommon/very desirable corals, and are unwilling to pay the going rate. There are hundreds of corals that are affordable... and a couple that are not due to high demand.

Just like reefing equipment. You don’t need a Red Sea reefer, you can get 40 gallons for $40 at petco. You don’t need a Vortech, you can get a Jebao Wavemaker for $30. You don’t need a radion, you can get a LED light on eBay for $100.

It’s capitalism. Is it unfair that a Ferrari is a million bucks when a Toyota is only 20k a piece? Um, no. That’s life.

alpinestar · Feb 2, 2019

TheHarold said:
Not all corals are $2000 each. You can find corals for $10-25 still, just like before. Why shouldn’t I be allowed to list a coral for $2000? Nobody has to buy it. But buyers set the prices; if they value a 1/2” stub for 2k, that’s what it sells for.

These sort of posts come up constantly and IMO are silly. If you look at the corals available years ago, it haven’t changed too much. You can still get your hammer corals, Duncan’s, frogspawn, and softies at $10-20 a piece. Same thing with polyps.

I think the problem is people feel entitled to uncommon/very desirable corals, and are unwilling to pay the going rate. There are hundreds of corals that are affordable... and a couple that are not due to high demand.

Just like reefing equipment. You don’t need a Red Sea reefer, you can get 40 gallons for $40 at petco. You don’t need a Vortech, you can get a Jebao Wavemaker for $30. You don’t need a radion, you can get a LED light on eBay for $100.

It’s capitalism. Is it unfair that a Ferrari is a million bucks when a Toyota is only 20k a piece? Um, no. That’s life.

THIS!

amazongb · Feb 2, 2019

The issue of high coral pricing transcends many industries. People pay millions of dollars for art, wine etc. It's the rarity of the item, demand, and incentives that encourage high prices. A good book to read is The Armchair Economist. The high price of rare corals doesn't surprise me.. the incentives for collectors to grow and propagate them makes it hard for them to pass up. For wealthy collectors that just want something that nobody else has is the same thing driving up art prices, collector cars etc. I would expect in a down economy, the problem of high prices could right itself, but as we chug along

I'm lucky, I buy the stuff that nobody considers popular such as slimers, digis, etc and I get enjoyment from that.

You'll find that boycotting much of anything hasn't worked in the past. The best thing you can do to drive down prices is grow mass quantities of the rarer corals and offer them for sell at a discount.

Jacked Reefer · Feb 2, 2019

The only thing you can really can do is buy the coral and sell the frags for what you think the price should be.

thehammer1985 · Feb 2, 2019

TheHarold said:
Not all corals are $2000 each. You can find corals for $10-25 still, just like before. Why shouldn’t I be allowed to list a coral for $2000? Nobody has to buy it. But buyers set the prices; if they value a 1/2” stub for 2k, that’s what it sells for.

These sort of posts come up constantly and IMO are silly. If you look at the corals available years ago, it haven’t changed too much. You can still get your hammer corals, Duncan’s, frogspawn, and softies at $10-20 a piece. Same thing with polyps.

I think the problem is people feel entitled to uncommon/very desirable corals, and are unwilling to pay the going rate. There are hundreds of corals that are affordable... and a couple that are not due to high demand.

Just like reefing equipment. You don’t need a Red Sea reefer, you can get 40 gallons for $40 at petco. You don’t need a Vortech, you can get a Jebao Wavemaker for $30. You don’t need a radion, you can get a LED light on eBay for $100.

It’s capitalism. Is it unfair that a Ferrari is a million bucks when a Toyota is only 20k a piece? Um, no. That’s life.

was

If you notice I didnt include equipment in there because I understand r and d goes into it and more electronics that was never part of my opinion.

once again it's my opinion... if you feel like this is capitalism vs greed to each their own. Literally all they've done is attach names... the collections are no different and shipping has actually become easier and more stable.

As far as defending capatalism goes I'd probably suggest a different attempt. You're comparing apples to oranges. Ferraris have far more r and d and hand built custom forged parts. to a car that is purposely on a budget. If these corals where from a cave 400 feet down and itd warrant extravagant prices.

erk · Feb 2, 2019

I would say the increase in prices makes sense. Sure, some of it is due to fanfare and trying to maximize profit, but there is also the effects from natural resource impacts and increased reliance on aquaculture.

We have all seen the amount of damage that our natural reefs have sustained. This means less opportunities for collection with an ever increasing demand and you got a driver for higher prices. Add in the bans on Indo corals and other bans that have happened in the last year. I can't remember if it was Fiji or maybe some other island that instituted bans on mariculture.

Now add in aquaculture to all this. Aquaculture is slowly trying to fill the gap, but how do you fill a gap that is increasing faster than your ability to adapt to it? Look at WWC and their plans to open up a large scale aquaculture facility. Look at Tidal Gardens and their aquaculture expansion. Even Battlecorals recently expanded his operation. Larger means more overhead. Means they pass those increased operating costs onto the customer and they still want to collect some type of profit as well. So, now they add the 20% extra for profit to an already increased coral price due to increased overhead.

The increased prices will lock people who can't afford it out of the hobby, but there are things we can do.

We can work together and buy as a group. Then have a member grow that coral out and share with the rest. We can grow the cheaper corals out into larger colonies and flood the market to drive down the cost for newcomers. And I'm sure there are other options.

Auquanut · Feb 2, 2019

Maybe higher retail prices could be a good thing to a certain extent. Every time I'm in the LFS (which I will be visiting tomorrow) I see customers bringing in frags for sale or credit. Last time I was in, Steve cut me a frag of Pink lemonade from a display tank and sold it to me for far less than I would have paid online. perhaps, if we don't get too caught up in needing the latest and greatest, we can support our LFS, reduce reef harvesting, and take a little pressure off of the hobby.

andrewkw · Feb 2, 2019

Many of you guys are forgetting where we get up to 90% of our corals is no longer an option. If anything the plain corals / frags should also increase and go up. There simply is not going to be a new supply of many "bread and butter" corals anytime soon. The reality is prices should go up. IF it were an option it's still more cost effective to collect a coral in the ocean and ship it across the world then it is to grow it out for months / years and sell it.