A real "LED X halide" thread, scientifically. LOL!

[Thales]

Listing only the benefits of each:
Metal halides:
1) Real full spectrum, as the video states, from UV to IR, like the sun.

Nah. Compare MH graph to the sun - they are not the same, and it depends on the bulb.

2) The coverage reflecting light all over the system, offering light reflected under the corals with proper spread, when application is right.

You can get this with LED, when the application is right

3) Very strong intensity in a very safe way, allowing the corals to receive the amazing full spectrum very similar to what we see in nature.

Not really - MH isn't the same as the sun. And you can easily have unsafe intensity when changing bulbs. You have to be on top of it to not have problems.

4) The glitter lines punching that spectrum in pulses, stimulating the corals, as we see in nature. Glitter lines must play in the natural metabolism of the shallow water corals and clams.

MH glitter lines are nothing like natural glitter lines in periodicity nor intensity.
5) The ability to change bulbs and choose, within that full spectrum, what pleases our eyes, but still providing the qualities we are looking for when choosing halides. Changing bulbs also refresh the initial light qualities of the light and keep those qualities in the long run.

You aren't getting 'full spectrum' from 20k lights.

6) A very inexpensive gear in the long run!!! We can buy a metal halide system and have it for the rest of our lives, just changing bulbs every year or so.

Unless you change bulbs, reflectors, and ballasts for different spectrums.

LEDs:
1) The ability to change spectrum, which has many times seen as a negative aspect. That was the reason why some LED manufacturers are trying to make new fixtures without that ability, or teaching how to set the spectrum for their products.
2) The aesthetics of the chromatic blue emission from LEDs can't be reproduced by halides. Many people see that as a priority.
3) The aesthetics of a smaller/thinner fixture over the tank.

I think this misses all kinds of benefits that people see with LED. The first benefit, you immediately convert to a negative. Controllability. Intensity shifting. Spectrum shifting. Not having to change bulbs. Less heat produced in an enclosed space. No big heavy ballast to find space for.

 

[Thales]

Yup! The term "best" was many times used by LED manufacturers to compare their products to metal halides and T5s, in order to sell their products. There are lot's of different qualities between the types of reef lights and it will always be a matter of personal preference and priorities in the end.

And by MH manufactures as well to sell their products right? Many MH bulbs and ballasts have been touted as the best. People are now making blanket statements that MH are the best in general. You called out the 65k bulb as the best above didn't you?

 

[Thales]

One thing I would like to add to this thread is the fact that many LED users see metal halide almost as a threat. They think metal halide should be out of the market and the only option is what the LED the chose. They believe in those who preaches AGAINST metal halides. We have mentioned in the past the so called "confirmation bias", when people try to convince themselves they did a great thing spending their money on a high priced tag LED. That is mostly what happens IMO, but also the personal preference for each in regards to aesthetics play some in the game.

Some MH users do the same thing though right?
I am confused why some MH fans feel like victims.

 

[Thales]

All the corals in shallow water are there simply because they grow in that environment. The choice to replicate that environment using halides is just one more. It should be available for those who want to use. Simple as that. I personally think the very best of all is natural sun light.

But it is available. I just don't understand why people think it isn't.

 

[A. grandis]

Nah. Compare MH graph to the sun - they are not the same, and it depends on the bulb.

Let me rephrase: The sun has spectrum from UV to IR. Halides also do. Not the same! But from real UV to IR.

You can get this with LED, when the application is right

Not exactly like halides though.

Not really - MH isn't the same as the sun. And you can easily have unsafe intensity when changing bulbs. You have to be on top of it to not have problems.

Of course we need to adapt the corals when changing bulbs.

You aren't getting 'full spectrum' from 20k lights.

It's just less "white" and more "blue".

Unless you change bulbs, reflectors, and ballasts for different spectrums.

Ok...cheaper than changing LED fixtures, that's for sure.

I think this misses all kinds of benefits that people see with LED. The first benefit, you immediately convert to a negative. Controllability. Intensity shifting. Spectrum shifting.

In my opinion, generally speaking, and because there is a very large percentage of the hobbyists today are newbies, the ability to change spectrum without understanding much about it is a negative aspect. But maybe I shouldn't even mention that...
"not having to change bulbs" means that they would have to change fixture$$$$ instead.

Not having to change bulbs. Less heat produced in an enclosed space. No big heavy ballast to find space for.

Less heat produced only if you don't use it in the same wattage. Sanjay, and others here, have always mentioned to achieve similar results one would have to use LEDs in a similar wattage fashion when comparing to halides.

Love the big heavy bulky powerful ballasts and reflectors!

 

[A. grandis]

Some MH users do the same thing though right?
I am confused why some MH fans feel like victims.

You have already answered!
We need a new "reef code" in regards to light.

 

[A. grandis]

But it is available. I just don't understand why people think it isn't.

Ok, I was trying to avoid that part... but clearly it needs to be specified. It's in regards to the propaganda in favor of LEDs and against metal halides. I don't want to go too deep on it to respect the rules and to avoid this thread to be closed mentioning companies here!

 

[A. grandis]

And by MH manufactures as well to sell their products right? Many MH bulbs and ballasts have been touted as the best. People are now making blanket statements that MH are the best in general. You called out the 65k bulb as the best above didn't you?

In my personal opinion. It's a matter of choice and preferences.. always.

 

[Thales]

You have already answered!
We need a new "reef code" in regards to light.

Nah. Stop listening to people that are saying MH are 'bad people', outside of forums I see very few people doing that and even on forums I see very few people doing that.
I don't see any actual meat to this argument.

 

[Thales]

Ok, I was trying to avoid that part... but clearly it needs to be specified. It's in regards to the propaganda in favor of LEDs and against metal halides. I don't want to go too deep on it to respect the rules and to avoid this thread to be closed mentioning companies here!

Then that has nothing at all to do with availability of MH.

If you want to stop all propaganda in the hobby, great, but MH is not at all special in this regard.

 

[A. grandis]

Nah. Stop listening to people that are saying MH are 'bad people', outside of forums I see very few people doing that and even on forums I see very few people doing that.
I don't see any actual meat to this argument.

LOL. It's getting better nowadays.

 

[A. grandis]

Then that has nothing at all to do with availability of MH.

If you want to stop all propaganda in the hobby, great, but MH is not at all special in this regard.

Sorry, we are not supposed to and can't post that stuff here. I already had way too many threads locked and deleted for my taste. Please do your own search. It's getting better... I hope!

 

[Thales]

Let me rephrase: The sun has spectrum from UV to IR. Halides also do. Not the same! But from real UV to IR.

So it seems people need to stop calling it full spectrum or like the sun. It isn't. Some MH have a broader range, but they are certainly not like the sun.

Not exactly like halides though.

But pretty similar.

Of course we need to adapt the corals when changing bulbs.

That is not a pro when considering halides.

It's just less "white" and more "blue".

Those are both 20k bulbs. It isn't just less white and blue, the spectrum plots are very different between either of the bulbs above and an 65k.

Ok...cheaper than changing LED fixtures, that's for sure.

About the same over the life of the fixture, without having to do the work and cost of changing bulbs. And we havent talked about MH intensity drop off over time.

In my opinion, generally speaking, and because there is a very large percentage of the hobbyists today are newbies, the ability to change spectrum without understanding much about it is a negative aspect. But maybe I shouldn't even mention that...
"not having to change bulbs" means that they would have to change fixture$$$$ instead.

You have a very similar issue with choosing MH bulb and ballast combination.
Again, the cost difference between changing a fixture every 5 years and changing MH bulbs yearly can be roughly the same depending on which LED you choose

Less heat produced only if you don't use it in the same wattage. Sanjay, and others here, have always mentioned to achieve similar results one would have to use LEDs in a similar wattage fashion when comparing to halides.

Nah - try it both in the same canopy. The on with the MH will get hotter faster. When I switched from MH to LED, I had to add heaters.

Love the big heavy bulky powerful ballasts and reflectors!

I loved MH. I still have my double lumanarc set ups in case someone can make me a compelling argument to change back. The practical benefits of LED are huge to me, and I have yet to see a compelling argument to change back.

 

[areefer01]

The application of different types of light, say metal halide, T5 or LED will show differently and present different results to each case. The application of metal halide for home aquarium has been more than adjusted in the past and it was the main source of light for so many years with a tremendous success. It's application utilizing different ballasts, bulbs and reflectors is what will provide the same amazing results for any size system, with different organisms. The availability of different gear using 70W,100W, 150W, 175W, 250W 400W, 1000W was largely available to those who would choose halides in the past. So the correct application for each system will follow the ability of each case. Today we still have 175W, 250W, 400W and 1000W bulbs available and that still give us some room to choose the right system for what we want to address, and a very viable option.
So it's not only for aquaculture, but mainly for home aquariums. By the way, the majority of the fixtures they are using today for aquaculture are actually design and largely used specifically for 55, 75 or 90 gallon tanks back in the day, using 175W or 250W bulbs!

I do not disagree. All I was saying is that ACI is in the business of selling coral and they will push the envelop as it relates to lighting and chemistry in order to achieve that. The saying 'time is money' is true for them and aquaculture in general. How much of that is due to the lights or chemistry envelop who is to say.

My point is that it may not necessarily apply to Charlotte who lives on 22 Acacia Avenue.

 

[Eric R.]

My point is that it may not necessarily apply to Charlotte who lives on 22 Acacia Avenue.

I didn't realize that Charlotte owned a reef tank... I don't remember that particular lyric! \m/ \m/

 

[A. grandis]

I do not disagree. All I was saying is that ACI is in the business of selling coral and they will push the envelop as it relates to lighting and chemistry in order to achieve that. The saying 'time is money' is true for them and aquaculture in general. How much of that is due to the lights or chemistry envelop who is to say.

My point is that it may not necessarily apply to Charlotte who lives on 22 Acacia Avenue.

Again, Jake was the ultimate defender of using LEDs and avoiding halides for his own reasons, but in that video he was solemnly referring to the "best light to grow corals", without any other obstacle, and he chose MHs. There was no other reefer that I could share/agree in so many subjects in the reef hobby than Jake. It will be very hard to have a close replacement in the industry and as a hobbyist to me. I deeply miss the publication of his insights and visions. His mini rants were in 98% working in my favor, except for halides (?). When he published that about the Iwasaki's, it became even closer to 100%. It was his vision and care for the corals, observing them in situ, that gave him the knowledge to choose the Iwasaki. Personal preference, yes, like me and many others here.

Yup, Charlotte must be having fun with those LEDs and that is fine with me too.

 

[A. grandis]

I didn't realize that Charlotte owned a reef tank... I don't remember that particular lyric! \m/ \m/

You need to go to that address at nigh to find out if there is a blue light.

 

[njreefkeeper]

Listing only the benefits of each:
Metal halides:
1) Real full spectrum, as the video states, from UV to IR, like the sun.
2) The coverage reflecting light all over the system, offering light reflected under the corals with proper spread, when application is right.
3) Very strong intensity in a very safe way, allowing the corals to receive the amazing full spectrum very similar to what we see in nature.
4) The glitter lines punching that spectrum in pulses, stimulating the corals, as we see in nature. Glitter lines must play in the natural metabolism of the shallow water corals and clams.
5) The ability to change bulbs and choose, within that full spectrum, what pleases our eyes, but still providing the qualities we are looking for when choosing halides. Changing bulbs also refresh the initial light qualities of the light and keep those qualities in the long run.
6) A very inexpensive gear in the long run!!! We can buy a metal halide system and have it for the rest of our lives, just changing bulbs every year or so.
LEDs:
1) The ability to change spectrum, which has many times seen as a negative aspect. That was the reason why some LED manufacturers are trying to make new fixtures without that ability, or teaching how to set the spectrum for their products.
2) The aesthetics of the chromatic blue emission from LEDs can't be reproduced by halides. Many people see that as a priority.
3) The aesthetics of a smaller/thinner fixture over the tank.

Hmmm….your list of halide attributes are all animal-centric to animals being kept, whereas your led characteristics are purely aesthetic.

 

[areefer01]

I didn't realize that Charlotte owned a reef tank... I don't remember that particular lyric! \m/ \m/

Ironically enough that is the song that was playing when I was replying. Go figure.

 

[areefer01]

You need to go to that address at nigh to find out if there is a blue light.

Red light comes to mind.