Abalone with PVC plumbing

Swingline77 · Nov 9, 2018

I'm setting up a tank that will contain abalone, and have some concerns regarding tin toxicity.

I've been following and contributing to the thread on tin toxicity (link at end). I've learned the following:
1. Tin, in levels far below what can be tested by send-away labs (by non mass spectronomy methods) can cause problems with some gastropods.
2. Organic tin can be contributed to a system via leaching from PVC and glass (which is cast on molten tin). Elemental tin (which is, for all intents and purposes, harmless) can be introduced via macro algae.
3. Though abalone are gastropods, their tolerance for tin is unknown, at least to me. I haven't been able to find any info regarding this.

As of now, I've eliminated all PVC from my system with the exception of the outlet tube on my Reef Octopus protein skimmer. I'm considering selling the protein skimmer and getting a model that doesn't contain any PVC. I don't know if this is necessary, though. From a theoretical point of view, it seems like it might be wise. However, I don't know if this would actually benefit me.

What could help me get a handle on all this is knowing how well others are able to keep abalone in systems that use PVC. From reading online, it's said that abalone are pretty easy to keep, and are considered hardy. I don't know if those that have kept abalone have PVC plumbing, though.

So, should I ditch the PVC containing protein skimmer, or just go ahead and use it?

Thanks.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/triton-testing-poll-tin-vs-pvc.179515/page-3#post-5328958

Hitman · Nov 9, 2018

I don’t have a answer for you but I’m going to tag along as I have introduced 4 in the last year and have not been able to keep them alive. My last icp test showed a slight elevated level of Tin and high nickel which was due to a rusty magnet which has been removed. Also several months ago I removed all my soft plumbing and went full pvc so you have sparked my interest!

KrisReef · Nov 9, 2018

I can't think of an aquaculture set up that I've seen that wasn't using PVC in their plumbing.
Abalone
Halibut
White seabass
Salmon
Trout
Sturgeon
I'm sure I have forgotten a few.

What kind of plumbing (material) are you using?

LobsterOfJustice · Nov 10, 2018

Are you actively having issues or is all of this out of an abundance of caution? I can’t imagine it would be a problem, as KrisReef mentioned I believe Abalone are commercially aquacultured and I’m sure they use PVC in those setups. Even if the PVC leached something, I doubt it would leach indefinitely... you could run the system empty and let it leach out and then remove the toxin via water changes, polyfilter, or other metal absorber. Are you not concerned that any other plastics or whatever you used to substitute for PVC are leaching something as well?

Swingline77 · Nov 10, 2018

KrisReef said:
I can't think of an aquaculture set up that I've seen that wasn't using PVC in their plumbing. ...
What kind of plumbing (material) are you using?

This is a good point. Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't commercial operations located adjacent to the ocean, and don't they completely flush their systems with seawater on a continual basis? It's my understanding that PVC leaches FAR more organic tin during the first few weeks of operation than it does subsequently (source: http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a303717.pdf). If you have PVC leaching at a low level in an open/semi-open system, then constant water change can keep organic tin below problematic levels. The closed system of an aquarium might be a different matter. I'm not trying to argue with you, I'm just wondering.

Currently, my setup is in various boxes. I'd ordered PVC fittings that haven't been used yet. The alternative is polypropylene. I have silicone tubing that I'm soft-plumbing with. After reading through this thread, I'm thinking of just pre-leaching the PVC, and using it.

LobsterOfJustice said:
Are you actively having issues or is all of this out of an abundance of caution? I can’t imagine it would be a problem, as KrisReef mentioned I believe Abalone are commercially aquacultured and I’m sure they use PVC in those setups. Even if the PVC leached something, I doubt it would leach indefinitely... you could run the system empty and let it leach out and then remove the toxin via water changes, polyfilter, or other metal absorber. Are you not concerned that any other plastics or whatever you used to substitute for PVC are leaching something as well?

I'm not experiencing problems, I'm being (perhaps too) cautious. As for PVC leaching over time, it seems that the leaching rate would decrease exponentially (http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a303717.pdf). I don't know at what point it would ever stop leaching completely. If it doen't, I don't know at what levels it would continue to leach. My gut feeling is that you're right, since people do keep abalone in tanks. I can't imagine that all the tanks used incorporate either non-PVC fittings/pipe or are old enough that leaching has gone to zero.

I plan to let the entire system run for a few weeks containing nothing but RO water, drain it, then let it run for two months with rock/live sand/algae/etc. before adding anything.

Thanks for bringing the polyfilter/metal absorber to my attention. I didn't know that there is such a thing.

As for polymers other than PVC contributing leachate to the system, you're right. My reasoning is that though various organics in polypropylene, etc. are harmful, organic leachate comes from PVC as well. Additionally, PVC contributes organic tin, the threat of which I wasn't aware until recently. Non-PVC might be the lesser of two evils.

As for all this, I really don't know. I started this thread to get to the bottom of things. I don't want to return my PVC and swap out my skimmer if I don't have to. Raw numbers cannot be come by in relation to this; the best I can hope for is to hear the experience of others. There seem to be two general truths at play here:
1. People do keep gastropods in aquariums, including abalone.
2. People often report gastropods having short lifespans in aquaria. There must be something in many closed systems that's harming them. Might it be PVC? Might it be a multivariate problem? Might the problem be eliminated with sufficient pre-leaching? I don't know.

KrisReef · Nov 10, 2018

Swingline77 said:
This is a good point. Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't commercial operations located adjacent to the ocean, and don't they completely flush their systems with seawater on a continual basis? It's my understanding that PVC leaches FAR more organic tin during the first few weeks of operation than it does subsequently (source: http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a303717.pdf). If you have PVC leaching at a low level in an open/semi-open system, then constant water change can keep organic tin below problematic levels. The closed system of an aquarium might be a different matter. I'm not trying to argue with you, I'm just wondering.

Currently, my setup is in various boxes. I'd ordered PVC fittings that haven't been used yet. The alternative is polypropylene. I have silicone tubing that I'm soft-plumbing with. After reading through this thread, I'm thinking of just pre-leaching the PVC, and using it.

I'm not experiencing problems, I'm being (perhaps too) cautious. As for PVC leaching over time, it seems that the leaching rate would decrease exponentially (http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a303717.pdf). I don't know at what point it would ever stop leaching completely. If it doen't, I don't know at what levels it would continue to leach. My gut feeling is that you're right, since people do keep abalone in tanks. I can't imagine that all the tanks used incorporate either non-PVC fittings/pipe or are old enough that leaching has gone to zero.

I plan to let the entire system run for a few weeks containing nothing but RO water, drain it, then let it run for two months with rock/live sand/algae/etc. before adding anything.

Thanks for bringing the polyfilter/metal absorber to my attention. I didn't know that there is such a thing.

As for polymers other than PVC contributing leachate to the system, you're right. My reasoning is that though various organics in polypropylene, etc. are harmful, organic leachate comes from PVC as well. Additionally, PVC contributes organic tin, the threat of which I wasn't aware until recently. Non-PVC might be the lesser of two evils.

As for all this, I really don't know. I started this thread to get to the bottom of things. I don't want to return my PVC and swap out my skimmer if I don't have to. Raw numbers cannot be come by in relation to this; the best I can hope for is to hear the experience of others. There seem to be two general truths at play here:
1. People do keep gastropods in aquariums, including abalone.
2. People often report gastropods having short lifespans in aquaria. There must be something in many closed systems that's harming them. Might it be PVC? Might it be a multivariate problem? Might the problem be eliminated with sufficient pre-leaching? I don't know.

All good discussion.
Another point that may have been made is how much tin (total amount available ) is present in the PVC from where it could leach into the system? I wouldn’t expect that it would be present in a large amount that it could create long term issues for you?
That said;
In reefs we do have a leaching issue with phosphate from live rock that can persist for years. Using phosphate as a model, I am glad to listen to what folks have to discuss about tin in PVC because if it can cause an issue (like phosphate in live rock) I want to know this.

Again, discussion and trading ideas is a useful way to learn and improve our outcomes. Thanks everyone for the many useful discussion points thus far.

Dr. Dendrostein · Nov 10, 2018

Swingline77 said:
I'm setting up a tank that will contain abalone, and have some concerns regarding tin toxicity.

I've been following and contributing to the thread on tin toxicity (link at end). I've learned the following:
1. Tin, in levels far below what can be tested by send-away labs (by non mass spectronomy methods) can cause problems with some gastropods.
2. Organic tin can be contributed to a system via leaching from PVC and glass (which is cast on molten tin). Elemental tin (which is, for all intents and purposes, harmless) can be introduced via macro algae.
3. Though abalone are gastropods, their tolerance for tin is unknown, at least to me. I haven't been able to find any info regarding this.

As of now, I've eliminated all PVC from my system with the exception of the outlet tube on my Reef Octopus protein skimmer. I'm considering selling the protein skimmer and getting a model that doesn't contain any PVC. I don't know if this is necessary, though. From a theoretical point of view, it seems like it might be wise. However, I don't know if this would actually benefit me.

What could help me get a handle on all this is knowing how well others are able to keep abalone in systems that use PVC. From reading online, it's said that abalone are pretty easy to keep, and are considered hardy. I don't know if those that have kept abalone have PVC plumbing, though.

So, should I ditch the PVC containing protein skimmer, or just go ahead and use it?

Thanks.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/triton-testing-poll-tin-vs-pvc.179515/page-3#post-5328958

If me I would soak all pvc in 1 to 4 parts hydrochloric acid(swimming pool acid) , before planning to use. Get rid of tin residue. Just me

Dr. Dendrostein · Nov 10, 2018

Swingline77 said:
I'm setting up a tank that will contain abalone, and have some concerns regarding tin toxicity.

I've been following and contributing to the thread on tin toxicity (link at end). I've learned the following:
1. Tin, in levels far below what can be tested by send-away labs (by non mass spectronomy methods) can cause problems with some gastropods.
2. Organic tin can be contributed to a system via leaching from PVC and glass (which is cast on molten tin). Elemental tin (which is, for all intents and purposes, harmless) can be introduced via macro algae.
3. Though abalone are gastropods, their tolerance for tin is unknown, at least to me. I haven't been able to find any info regarding this.

As of now, I've eliminated all PVC from my system with the exception of the outlet tube on my Reef Octopus protein skimmer. I'm considering selling the protein skimmer and getting a model that doesn't contain any PVC. I don't know if this is necessary, though. From a theoretical point of view, it seems like it might be wise. However, I don't know if this would actually benefit me.

What could help me get a handle on all this is knowing how well others are able to keep abalone in systems that use PVC. From reading online, it's said that abalone are pretty easy to keep, and are considered hardy. I don't know if those that have kept abalone have PVC plumbing, though.

So, should I ditch the PVC containing protein skimmer, or just go ahead and use it?

Thanks.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/triton-testing-poll-tin-vs-pvc.179515/page-3#post-5328958

Great idea, hope all works out. Thank's for sharing

Swingline77 · Nov 10, 2018

Jomama said:
If me I would soak all pvc in 1 to 4 parts hydrochloric acid(swimming pool acid) , before planning to use. Get rid of tin residue. Just me

That's a really good idea.

Swingline77 · Nov 10, 2018

I just had an idea. I'd be very surprised if the organotin compounds found in PVC are light enough to evaporate under normal conditions. Since the tests for these compounds are not sensitive enough to tell me what I want to know, I can simply concentrate a sample of water. If concentrated enough, the tin will show up in a test. The results can then be converted back to give the concentration of the water at its full volume.

To illustrate the point. If I take 100 mL of water, and evaporate the water until I'm left with only 1 mL, then the solutes that are contained within this one mL are concentrated one hundred times as much as they would be in the original 100 mL sample. If the 1 mL sample is tested and is found to have 9 micrograms of tin in it, then I'll know that the original sample contains one hundred times less than 9 micrograms, or 0.09 micrograms of tin.