Accidentally poisoned inverts- Bayer

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starypotter said:
Thank you, I remember you saying that earlier and I've got the filter running again making some terrible splashes for now but it's just frightening to think of putting anything else back in there with only time and air to 'fix' it, it's not something you can see or feel you know?
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No worries. It’s been quite some time , so a hope to tag some experts for a refresher.

Fwiw , there is a very popular coral food that comes in a white bottle with reddish pink label and a coral dip that comes in a white bottle with a reddish pink dip. I don’t keep the dip near the tank anymore. Just sayin. I smelled it as it went in the water. :eek:
 
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saltyfilmfolks said:
No worries. It’s been quite some time , so a hope to tag some experts for a refresher.

Fwiw , there is a very popular coral food that comes in a white bottle with reddish pink label and a coral dip that comes in a white bottle with a reddish pink dip. I don’t keep the dip near the tank anymore. Just sayin. I smelled it as it went in the water. :eek:
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Oh dear I hope it didn't cause too many problems for you!
 
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saltyfilmfolks said:
Just a capful of coral rx. The way it’s formulated it’s not quite so severe a “poison”. So no. But def made me think.
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That's good to hear. I've heard that a lot of the market coral dips are more of a human placebo, that is making the human think it did something rather than actually doing something for the coral, do you frequently use coral RX? What about for coral with questionable sources? My one LFS has some really great husbandry and I trust them a great deal, but they only have a smaller selection of frags, they mostly have $100+ colonies. But another LFS has a much wider selection of frags, but golly are their husbandry practices something... bubble algae in the tanks, a few other kinds of the 'kill it with fire' sort of things. He himself told me that he doesn't care if a fish has ich or anything, as long as it's not 'too much'. I watched a customer bring in LR for a trade in and he just plopped it right on in one of the tanks and so it makes me very wary of buying anything from there I can only imagine the things in those systems. Being polite will also get you miles and uh... he's behind the starting line.
 
starypotter said:
That's good to hear. I've heard that a lot of the market coral dips are more of a human placebo, that is making the human think it did something rather than actually doing something for the coral, do you frequently use coral RX? What about for coral with questionable sources? My one LFS has some really great husbandry and I trust them a great deal, but they only have a smaller selection of frags, they mostly have $100+ colonies. But another LFS has a much wider selection of frags, but golly are their husbandry practices something... bubble algae in the tanks, a few other kinds of the 'kill it with fire' sort of things. He himself told me that he doesn't care if a fish has ich or anything, as long as it's not 'too much'. I watched a customer bring in LR for a trade in and he just plopped it right on in one of the tanks and so it makes me very wary of buying anything from there I can only imagine the things in those systems. Being polite will also get you miles and uh... he's behind the starting line.
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Most of the dips , like the ones @vetteguy53081 reccomended are actually designed to be used with qt in a way. Mild and frequently needing redipping. This may now me considered not effective in age of dip and hope. Ie Bayer And into the dt(and hope the eggs don’t hatch)

A qt if the first line of defense. The qt, keep in mind , is meant to be nuked. For example , zoa nudis. If the eggs hatch , you can dip to kill em and scrape eggs agin and agin , or in qt you just use flat worm exit. Nukes it like Bayer. You can do that to a DT. But there’s a lot of life you want that will be killed. Pods worms etc.
same goes for algae. There are some very harsh algecides folks won’t use in a DT any more , instead look for fluconazole and vibrant as it’s mild on the DT.
So , if you get a frag , dip in a good but mild dip, and clean up the frag but bubble alge forms redip and scrub, but it spreads in the qt, you nuke the qt tank and save the DT.

This also allows for the choice of benifical or just plain cool hitchhikers. Like worms and stomatella snails acro crabs etc, to be found and added to the DT.

So it’s not a 100% guaranteed thing but allows for a buffer between dirty or unknown systems.
New live rock actually can be cleaned and qt in the same way in a bucket.

As far as fish parasites , it’s the same 72 day fallow , in coral qt or bucket. Myself , If it’s a must have cool rock, it’s probaly faster to kill it and recycle it in a bucket than qt.

And yea , sadly , it takes the fun out of impulse buying.
 
saltyfilmfolks said:
Most of the dips , like the ones @vetteguy53081 reccomended are actually designed to be used with qt in a way. Mild and frequently needing redipping. This may now me considered not effective in age of dip and hope. Ie Bayer And into the dt(and hope the eggs don’t hatch)

A qt if the first line of defense. The qt, keep in mind , is meant to be nuked. For example , zoa nudis. If the eggs hatch , you can dip to kill em and scrape eggs agin and agin , or in qt you just use flat worm exit. Nukes it like Bayer. You can do that to a DT. But there’s a lot of life you want that will be killed. Pods worms etc.
same goes for algae. There are some very harsh algecides folks won’t use in a DT any more , instead look for fluconazole and vibrant as it’s mild on the DT.
So , if you get a frag , dip in a good but mild dip, and clean up the frag but bubble alge forms redip and scrub, but it spreads in the qt, you nuke the qt tank and save the DT.

This also allows for the choice of benifical or just plain cool hitchhikers. Like worms and stomatella snails acro crabs etc, to be found and added to the DT.

So it’s not a 100% guaranteed thing but allows for a buffer between dirty or unknown systems.
New live rock actually can be cleaned and qt in the same way in a bucket.

As far as fish parasites , it’s the same 72 day fallow , in coral qt or bucket. Myself , If it’s a must have cool rock, it’s probaly faster to kill it and recycle it in a bucket than qt.

And yea , sadly , it takes the fun out of impulse buying.
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Okay I'll have to keep this in mind. Luckily my DT is free of fish at the moment so it wasn't too much trouble to put the shrimp in, I'd rather just stick them in there with the corals than try to keep them in a bucket until my poisoned tank is cleaned up.
 
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Fully agree, and without question, water changes and carbon. I'd also hold off adding any inverts for some time...and then test by adding some inexpensive snails to check that it's safe.
 
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MnFish1 said:
I posted 2 articles above if you click on them you can see.
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I did see those yes, and I tried reading them however I'm a social sciences major, not so good with reading scientific articles with stuff I don't understand very well and after losing some expensive (to me at least) inverts, I just want to be sure that I have at least two separate sources confirming the same conclusion since I don't want to make any more mistakes that cost lives ;Nailbiting
 
redfishbluefish said:
Fully agree, and without question, water changes and carbon. I'd also hold off adding any inverts for some time...and then test by adding some inexpensive snails to check that it's safe.
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Thanks for the confirmation, I'll start that right away and luckily I have access to free snails and ghost shrimp at least for the next week or two so I'll be able to test it out.

I plan to ditch all of the water, fill it back up with water from DT, and then put the carbon in. How long should I run the carbon before testing it out? Are we talking more of "run the water through the carbon X times", or are we talking more in terms of "leave it for a week or more"?
 
I'd continue to run carbon for quite some time. My concern is Bayer that has gotten taken up in the rock. This might slowly release back into the tank. So continue to run carbon.
 
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redfishbluefish said:
I'd continue to run carbon for quite some time. My concern is Bayer that has gotten taken up in the rock. This might slowly release back into the tank. So continue to run carbon.
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Okay sounds good thank you, I read a thread about dosing copper to DT and the removal of that so I’ll take some of those ideas and apply them here I just wish it was easier to test for rather than needing to test with a living thing.

How long would you say before I could put corals, same idea of a real long time or is it different somehow since people will intentionally dip corals in bayer I wonder if a residue would affect them too much.
 
starypotter said:
Thanks, I'm hoping I could get some people to second all of this before I put anything else in there.

Can anybody on #reefsquad confirm and help with this? @Randy Holmes-Farley @redfishbluefish post #19 is the main issue.
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Based on the rather hydrophobic structure (or at least part of the structure, the part with the fluorines on the benzene ring)) of fluconazole, I expect GAC will do a good job of binding it.

imgsrv.fcgi
 
starypotter said:
Okay sounds good thank you, I read a thread about dosing copper to DT and the removal of that so I’ll take some of those ideas and apply them here I just wish it was easier to test for rather than needing to test with a living thing.
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What binds copper will be different than fluconazole.
 
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from http://pmep.cce.cornell.edu/profiles/extoxnet/carbaryl-dicrotophos/cyfluthrin-ext.html

This is for Cyfluthrin, not imidacloprid, so one version of one of the two active ingredients.

Breakdown of Chemical in Soil and Groundwater
Cyfluthrin is sensitive to breakdown by sunlight. On the surface of soils, its half-life is 48-72 hours. It has a half-life of 56-63 days in German loam and sandy loam soils, respectively, and has similar persistence in soils under conditions of low oxygen (anaerobic). Cyfluthrin is very immobile in soils, and is not considered a threat to contaminate groundwater (9). The primary breakdown products of cyfluthrin are carbon dioxide and 4-fluoro-3- phenyl-benzaldehyde (a compound of considerably lower toxicity than the parent compound) (2).

Breakdown of Chemical in Surface Water
Cyfluthrin is broken down quickly in surface water. Beacuse it is realtively non-soluble, and less dense than water, it will float on the surface film of natural waters. At the surface, it is subject to breakdown by exposure to sunlight (1 day). It is stable to breakdown by water at acidic pH, and quickly hydrolyzed in water under basic conditions (9).

9. U.S. Environmental Protection Agency. 1992. Pesticide Environmental Fate One Line Summary: Cyfluthrin. U.S. EPA, Environmental Fate and Effects Division. Washington, DC.
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IF YOU HAD TO TAKE A REEFING EXAM, WOULD YOU PASS?

  • Yes!

    Votes: 32 45.7%

  • Not yet, but I have one that I want to buy in mind!

    Votes: 9 12.9%

  • No.

    Votes: 26 37.1%

  • Other (please explain).

    Votes: 3 4.3%
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