Achilles tang ich

shoelaceike · Dec 9, 2015

Has anyone ever had an achilles tang beat ich without treatment?

Jlobes · Dec 9, 2015

is that possible? they may not be showing it, but dont think it can be "beat" or cured without meds

Humblefish · Dec 9, 2015

I don't know anyone who has ever done it. Perhaps in a very large system it can be done, but Acanthurus tangs are some of the most ich susceptible fish there are.

@3FordFamily wrote a very good thread regarding this; hopefully he chimes in.

shoelaceike · Dec 9, 2015

Ya I know they are way more difficult.....I have had many others beat it (at least not showing it) I was wondering if the achilles can....I also have a pb that had it but seems to be getting better, maybe to early to tell. The achilles though still has spots....is eating though

melypr1985 · Dec 9, 2015

I have never heard of an acanthurus tang beating ich. I've heard of people attempting "ich management" with varied results, but the fish dont typically last all that long with that method... certainly not as long as you'd want them to last. I could tell you exactly what 3ford will say, but I'll let him do it. He does it with just the right amount of passion! lol

shoelaceike · Dec 9, 2015

Thanks....lets see what he has to say. In the past I've been pretty successful with ich managment. I'm hoping i can hear some success with acanthurus tangs.....

4FordFamily · Dec 9, 2015

I hope you find this thread useful.

Please, please, please do not follow in my footsteps I left doing what you describe before you finally come to the realizations I did.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/i...ears-of-experience-and-ich-management.206347/

Adamwheel · Dec 9, 2015

Tank Transfer and it will be healthy in 12 days.

shoelaceike · Dec 9, 2015

Adamwheel said:
Tank Transfer and it will be healthy in 12 days.

Ya but it will get it right when I put him back lol

4FordFamily · Dec 9, 2015

shoelaceike said:
Ya but it will get it right when I put him back lol

This is also true

melypr1985 · Dec 9, 2015

shoelaceike said:
Ya but it will get it right when I put him back lol

true. You would have to take all the fish out, treat them all at the same time, then leave the tank fallow for 76 days

shoelaceike · Dec 9, 2015

3FordFamily said:
I hope you find this thread useful.

Please, please, please do not follow in my footsteps I left doing what you describe before you finally come to the realizations I did.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/i...ears-of-experience-and-ich-management.206347/

Good write up....nice to hear something from experience. I've only had one pb tang before and he's died.

I'm also happy to hear that you did have some limited success....even I don't with acanthurus tangs then I simply won't have acanthurus tangs.....while I do qt my fish, taking everything out and leaving it fallow simply doesn't make sense at this point......if more fish pick it up I may go that direction. I appreciate the help and will update the post in a bit.

4FordFamily · Dec 9, 2015

Glad to help. I will say, that while it is possible one can make a case that ich management in most cases is probably not ethical. Just my .02. Best of luck to you.

shoelaceike · Dec 9, 2015

3FordFamily said:
Glad to help. I will say, that while it is possible one can make a case that ich management in most cases is probably not ethical. Just my .02. Best of luck to you.

I understand but that is the exact reason I'm wary to pull all 12 fish out, stuff them in a small tank and treat them with harsh chemicals because one fish has ich....I feel (in this case) I have a better chance of keeping most of the fish if I try to manage it.....As you said though I likely won't be successful with the acanthurus

robert · Dec 9, 2015

Fish can and do develop antibodies and immunity to ich provided trophant levels are enough to stimulate an immune response and not high enough to kill the fish. This is the whole basis of the "ich vaccine" being worked on for aquaculture systems.

If the concentration of ich or velvet is kept below a lethal threshold - your fish will develop immunity. Additionally most ich strains will "self destruct" in a finite number of generations - losing their virulence. Tank Transfer is an effective method of eradicating ich - but I'm not aware of such a method for velvet.

An alternative is simply good mechanical filteration - both ich and velvet are easily stripped from the water column. A system with adequate mechanical filteration will maintain ich below lethal levels until resident fish develop immunity on their own. It also has the advantage in that it also eliminates other members of the oodium genus which taget other members of your system as well as any other parasite of corals, fish, pods and worms which has a free swimming stage.

Any fish death by ich or velvet is IMO an indication of inadequate filteration in a reef system.

In answer to the OP - yes - in a well set up system - no tang should ever die of ich or velvet - even without treatment.

Humblefish · Dec 9, 2015

The only successful "immune response" to C. irritans I am aware of is this 2007 study: http://scsagr.scsfri.ac.cn/upimg/200853010029.pdf

In most studies, mucous antibodies have been deemed incapable of immobilizing theronts. The parasite attaches, drops off on schedule, encysts and the life cycle begins a new. As far as waiting for ich to "self destruct", that takes 100 generations or so. Given the average life cycle of ich is 2 weeks, this could take almost 4 years (on average).

If another fish is introduced with ich, the new strain restarts the 4 year clock.

Here is an excellent read on ich & antibodies: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1050464811000957?np=y

Don't know what the status of an "ich vaccine" is, but here's some work that was being done on one back in 1999: http://www.int-res.com/articles/dao/36/d036p021.pdf?pagewanted=all

shoelaceike · Dec 9, 2015

Wow interesting stuff.

Humblefish · Dec 9, 2015

The problem with developing a "cure" for ich (or any other external parasite) is the parasite spends much more time "off fish" than on it. This is why the focus has always been on treating the water/environment the parasite lives most of it's time in.

Jlobes · Dec 10, 2015

Humblefish said:
The problem with developing a "cure" for ich (or any other external parasite) is the parasite spends much more time "off fish" than on it. This is why the focus has always been on treating the water/environment the parasite lives most of it's time in.

so, suppose you removed all infected fish from the tank, and did large/whole volume WCs at regular intervals, would you rid the tank of disease faster?

robert · Dec 10, 2015

Humblefish said:
The only successful "immune response" to C. irritans I am aware of is this 2007 study: http://scsagr.scsfri.ac.cn/upimg/200853010029.pdf

In most studies, mucous antibodies have been deemed incapable of immobilizing theronts. The parasite attaches, drops off on schedule, encysts and the life cycle begins a new. As far as waiting for ich to "self destruct", that takes 100 generations or so. Given the average life cycle of ich is 2 weeks, this could take almost 4 years (on average). If another fish is introduced with ich, the new strain restarts the 4 year clock.

Here is an excellent read on ich & antibodies: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1050464811000957?np=y

Don't know what the status of an "ich vaccine" is, but here's some work that was being done on one back in 1999: http://www.int-res.com/articles/dao/36/d036p021.pdf?pagewanted=all

"The only successful "immune response" to C. irritans I am aware of is this 2007 tudy: http://scsagr.scsfri.ac.cn/upimg/200853010029.pdf"

No there are many -

"In most studies, mucous antibodies have been deemed incapable of immobilizing theronts. The parasite attaches, drops off on schedule encysts and the life cycle begins a new."

This is absolutely incorrect - the assessment of immunity is actually based on the reduction in trophants released from the fish with prior exposure.

In the table below: Groups A, B and C are groups which have varying degrees of prior exposure. Note the trophant release counts.

"As far as waiting for ich to "self destruct", that takes 100 generations or so."

I'm not sure where you got this data - if you have a source it would be appreciated. The best sources I have found actually remark on how difficult ich is to study for precisely the reason that strains die out so quickly - with one remarable strain lasting 34 generations while the vast majority extinguished much sooner. 10 months is more typical of the longer lasting strains - not four years.

"Don't know what the status of an "ich vaccine" is, but here's some work that was being done on one back in 1999"

Work continues - the issues with both of your citations is that these examine the imuunity imparted by protein fractions injected into the fish which is very different from the naturally aquired immunity from direct exposure. None of the studies of isolated proteins has been very successful to date generally - it seems that the immune system of differing species of fish may target different protein sequences - so a generalized vaccine is proving difficult.

But naturally aquired immunity has been observed in every fish species which I have seen studied. Everything from Tangs to Talapia.