Achilles tang- Velvet or something else?

[Flame2hawk]

Well yes I’m confronted with another challenge…treated DT with prazi as precautionary as noticed some labored breathing. labored breathing and flashing are definitely better although appetite still not normal. However my Achilles has developed quite a sheen in his forehead area which seems to be spreading towards dorsal region. He also has one pronounced spot which you can see in photos. He didn’t eat in last 3 days but thought that might be the impact of the Prazi treatment. I’m thinking parasitic and 30 day copper in order? I will likely do water change and see what happens before adding copper but know if its velvet time is of the essence. Please help as I don’t want to lose my beautiful Achilles or any other beauty!! Opinions always welcomed. Thx

@Jay Hemdal

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

It does not look like velvet to me. Velvet would be like fine salt sprinkled all over.

Im just guessing here but the head may be HLLE and the one white spot may be ich. Again this is a guess.

 

[Flame2hawk]

Achilles is now breathing very heavy and swimming in tight circles…..not a good sign i know….

 

[Flame2hawk]

It does not look like velvet to me. Velvet would be like fine salt sprinkled all over.

Im just guessing here but the head may be HLLE and the one white spot may be ich. Again this is a guess.

I agree that velvet is usually accompanied by allot of salt sprinkling which we don't have in this case….

He’s now breathing very heavy and in tight circles ….not good. Thx

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

He is obviously sick with something. There is a product called safety stop. It’s a formaldehyde dip for 45 min followed by methylene blue dip for 45 min. It’s used to decrease the pathogen burden. I recommend you do that then transfer him into QT with copper. I’m honestly not sure he will make it either way, but I have the feeling that if you don’t do anything, he definitely won’t make it. I know my LFS sells safety stop. Good luck.

 

[Flame2hawk]

He is obviously sick with something. There is a product called safety stop. It’s a formaldehyde dip for 45 min followed by methylene blue dip for 45 min. It’s used to decrease the pathogen burden. I recommend you do that then transfer him into QT with copper. I’m honestly not sure he will make it either way, but I have the feeling that if you don’t do anything, he definitely won’t make it. I know my LFS sells safety stop. Good luck.

Thank you. Your right there is something wrong for sure. Whether successful in getting him out or not I will need to treat the whole tank as parasites dont only decide to attack one fish. Eventually it will manifest in others especially if its velvet. My concern is getting a more definitive diagnosis before adding copper to my FOWLR display. Its a tight balancing act and yes i dont have much time.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Achilles is now breathing very heavy and swimming in tight circles…..not a good sign i know….

Very frequently, the only real symptom of Amyloodinium/velvet will be rapid breathing. Sometimes, you’ll see that sheen, especially on darker fish. Only in later stages will you see a “dusting”.
First thing to do is drop a good air stone in - just in case it’s a low oxygen or high carbon dioxide issue. Achilles have very high oxygen requirements.
A water change won’t hurt.

How do the other fish look?
Any invertebrates in the tank?
Can you post a short video of it?

Jay

 

[Wyvern]

First symptoms are rapid breathing, then signs of dust.

Flukes,parasitic isopods, low oxygen and ammonia can cause rapid breathing too.

Research H202 dosing, and ruby reef rally. The sooner you act, the better the outcome. If you have the luxury of QT, I would at least QT the tang.

 

[Flame2hawk]

The other fish look pretty normal. Their appetite is suppressed of course. Prazi was treated on 10/5 and then again on 10/14. No water change in between as it dissipates rather quickly( some say within 3 days). I have 2 large capacity pumps, vectra L2’s and have the 4 out take tubes breaking the water at the surface to ensure good oxygen exchange. Only invertebrates are 5/6 fighting couches which spend most of their time on the sand. No corals as this is a 625g FOWLR. I do have a large batch of rally on hand if you think that can help. Should I wait on water change or do asap now that I’m in third day of 2nd prazi dose? Thx all!

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

I really think that it you want to save your Achilles tang you need to act immediately. Ideal situation is medicated QT. If the other fish are ok for now you can focus on the Achilles until you figure out what you have to do, if anything, for the others. If it is velvet, which informed people on this board seem to think it is, you really have no time to deliberate. If he is having trouble breathing already it means his gills are affected and the clock is your enemy.

 

[Flame2hawk]

I’m actually looking for more definitive diagnoses since its not a slam dunk that its velvet and I would hate tdo dose the tank unnecessarily. At same time it can be a stress reaction from the prazi which is manifesting itself as a bacteria and in that case it would be a whole other treatment regimen. So nerve racking!

 

[Wyvern]

I’m actually looking for more definitive diagnoses since its not a slam dunk that its velvet and I would hate tdo dose the tank unnecessarily. At same time it can be a stress reaction from the prazi which is manifesting itself as a bacteria and in that case it would be a whole other treatment regimen. So nerve racking!

Unfortunately, by the time you get a definite diagnosis (if at all) it will be too little too late.

Flashing, heavy breathing, loss of appetite, gold, tan or white velvety appearance are all signs of Velvet.
Could it be something else? certainly, but if it IS Velvet you are on borrowed time.

If I had a gigantic tank like that I would attempt to remove the sickest fish and put in hospital tank, all others remaining in DT would be given H2O2 or Ruby Reef Rally.

I don't like the idea of Copper in the DT at all.

 

[Uncle99]

Velvet kills fast, feeds in the gills, suffocates fish so they try to compensate by passing more water over the gills.
I would copper him.

 

[Flame2hawk]

Unfortunately, by the time you get a definite diagnosis (if at all) it will be too little too late.

Flashing, heavy breathing, loss of appetite, gold, tan or white velvety appearance are all signs of Velvet.
Could it be something else? certainly, but if it IS Velvet you are on borrowed time.

If I had a gigantic tank like that I would attempt to remove the sickest fish and put in hospital tank, all others remaining in DT would be given H2O2 or Ruby Reef Rally.

I don't like the idea of Copper in the DT at all.

Would you recommend H2O2 and rally together at same time or just rally for now?

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

I read the reviews on Rally and they didn’t seem very promising. I think H2O2 is the same but I don’t know much about it. Honestly if it is velvet you need the big guns, i.e. Copper. And I do agree that copper in the display tank, especially one of that size, is not the best approach.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

The other fish look pretty normal. Their appetite is suppressed of course. Prazi was treated on 10/5 and then again on 10/14. No water change in between as it dissipates rather quickly( some say within 3 days). I have 2 large capacity pumps, vectra L2’s and have the 4 out take tubes breaking the water at the surface to ensure good oxygen exchange. Only invertebrates are 5/6 fighting couches which spend most of their time on the sand. No corals as this is a 625g FOWLR. I do have a large batch of rally on hand if you think that can help. Should I wait on water change or do asap now that I’m in third day of 2nd prazi dose? Thx all!

The other fish look pretty normal. Their appetite is suppressed of course. Prazi was treated on 10/5 and then again on 10/14. No water change in between as it dissipates rather quickly( some say within 3 days). I have 2 large capacity pumps, vectra L2’s and have the 4 out take tubes breaking the water at the surface to ensure good oxygen exchange. Only invertebrates are 5/6 fighting couches which spend most of their time on the sand. No corals as this is a 625g FOWLR. Ro I do have a large batch of rally on hand if you think that can help. Should I wait on water change or do asap now that I’m in third day of 2nd prazi dose? Thx all!

A short video might give me more to go on.

The only thing holding me back from saying it is velvet for sure is the other fish not really having symptoms - generally once a fish begins breathing fast due to velvet, most fish will be showing symptoms.
Copper in a treatment tank is the best cure for velvet, but peroxide dips can buy some time.
Jay

 

[Wyvern]

I read the reviews on Rally and they didn’t seem very promising. I think H2O2 is the same but I don’t know much about it. Honestly if it is velvet you need the big guns, i.e. Copper. And I do agree that copper in the display tank, especially one of that size, is not the best approach.

Would you recommend H2O2 and rally together at same time or just rally for now?

One or the other.
Rally will turn your tank glow nuclear green.

Only reason why I suggest those two is because the risk is minimal compared to copper and other treatments.

I can only go from what I have seen from others and case studies I've read, but h202 done correctly can eradicate velvet.

Obviously nothing, even copper, is 100%

 

[vetteguy53081]

I agree with Jay on the issue of velvet not being the culprit. I actually suspect flukes . You can give this guy a freshwater dip (AS LONG IS IT NOT DISTRESSED) as FW dip can stress it more . . . to eliminate the possibility of flukes. Even if not flukes, will give the fish temporary relief from parasite irritation. Agree with Jay also aon addition of pump and airstone. That breathing rate needs to be reduced.

Symptoms of velvet given to you in bits and pieces from others are:

Velvet spots on the fish that are much finer as Jay described than the spots seen in Ich making it harder to catch until in some cases - too late to treat.
Some behaviors associated with a fish with velvet are :
- Scratching body against hard objects
- Fish is lethargic
- Loss of appetite and weight loss
- Rapid, labored breathing
- Fins clamped against the body
- rapid breathing and mucus around the gills

Fish with velvet will typically stay at the surface of the water, or remain in a position where a steady flow of water is present in the aquarium. As the disease progresses outwards from the gills, the cysts then become visible on the fins and body. Although these cysts may appear as tiny white dots the size of a grain of salt, like the first sign of Saltwater Ich or White Spot Disease, what sets Oodinium apart from other types of ich is that at this point the fish have the appearance of being coated with what looks like a whitish or tan to golden colored, velvet-like film, thus the name Velvet Disease.
Remove fish from main tank and give them a FW dip or bath and then place them into a QT with vigorous aeration provided. Treat the fish in the QT with a copper-based medication. Although many over-the-counter remedies contain the general name as ich or ick treatments, carefully read the box to be sure it is specifically designed to target "Oodinium".

 

[Flame2hawk]

Velvet kills fast, feeds in the gills, suffocates fish so they try to compensate by passing more water over the gills.
I would copper him.

Are you saying copper the Dt now? Reason being if Achilles have it they all will need treatment fast.

I agree with Jay on the issue of velvet not being the culprit. I actually suspect flukes . You can give this guy a freshwater dip (AS LONG IS IT NOT DISTRESSED) as FW dip can stress it more . . . to eliminate the possibility of flukes. Even if not flukes, will give the fish temporary relief from parasite irritation. Agree with Jay also aon addition of pump and airstone. That breathing rate needs to be reduced.

Symptoms of velvet given to you in bits and pieces from others are:

Velvet spots on the fish that are much finer as Jay described than the spots seen in Ich making it harder to catch until in some cases - too late to treat.
Some behaviors associated with a fish with velvet are :
- Scratching body against hard objects
- Fish is lethargic
- Loss of appetite and weight loss
- Rapid, labored breathing
- Fins clamped against the body
- rapid breathing and mucus around the gills

Fish with velvet will typically stay at the surface of the water, or remain in a position where a steady flow of water is present in the aquarium. As the disease progresses outwards from the gills, the cysts then become visible on the fins and body. Although these cysts may appear as tiny white dots the size of a grain of salt, like the first sign of Saltwater Ich or White Spot Disease, what sets Oodinium apart from other types of ich is that at this point the fish have the appearance of being coated with what looks like a whitish or tan to golden colored, velvet-like film, thus the name Velvet Disease.
Remove fish from main tank and give them a FW dip or bath and then place them into a QT with vigorous aeration provided. Treat the fish in the QT with a copper-based medication. Although many over-the-counter remedies contain the general name as ich or ick treatments, carefully read the box to be sure it is specifically designed to target

I agree with Jay on the issue of velvet not being the culprit. I actually suspect flukes . You can give this guy a freshwater dip (AS LONG IS IT NOT DISTRESSED) as FW dip can stress it more . . . to eliminate the possibility of flukes. Even if not flukes, will give the fish temporary relief from parasite irritation. Agree with Jay also aon addition of pump and airstone. That breathing rate needs to be reduced.

Symptoms of velvet given to you in bits and pieces from others are:

Velvet spots on the fish that are much finer as Jay described than the spots seen in Ich making it harder to catch until in some cases - too late to treat.
Some behaviors associated with a fish with velvet are :
- Scratching body against hard objects
- Fish is lethargic
- Loss of appetite and weight loss
- Rapid, labored breathing
- Fins clamped against the body
- rapid breathing and mucus around the gills

Fish with velvet will typically stay at the surface of the water, or remain in a position where a steady flow of water is present in the aquarium. As the disease progresses outwards from the gills, the cysts then become visible on the fins and body. Although these cysts may appear as tiny white dots the size of a grain of salt, like the first sign of Saltwater Ich or White Spot Disease, what sets Oodinium apart from other types of ich is that at this point the fish have the appearance of being coated with what looks like a whitish or tan to golden colored, velvet-like film, thus the name Velvet Disease.
Remove fish from main tank and give them a FW dip or bath and then place them into a QT with vigorous aeration provided. Treat the fish in the QT with a copper-based medication. Although many over-the-counter remedies contain the general name as ich or ick treatments, carefully read the box to be sure it is specifically designed to target "Oodinium".

Velvet spots on the fish that are much finer as Jay described than the spots seen in Ich making it harder to catch until in some cases - too late to treat.
Some behaviors associated with a fish with velvet are :
- Scratching body against hard objects- not observed
- Fish is lethargic- not as active but wouldn’t call it lethargic
- Loss of appetite and weight- no weight loss but definitely appetite suppression (prazi?)
- Rapid, labored breathing- yes
- Fins clamped against the body- not observed
- rapid breathing and mucus around the gills- not observed

Tarnish brown sheen on forehead and back around dorsal observed.

I have dosed the DT in the past with good success. Tastes a bit to reach therapeutic levels and of course I’ve worked hard to get rid of it from my tank so it stinks I may have to do it again.

 

[Flame2hawk]

might regret this but after just finishing large water change, going to run poly filter overnight to get all prazi out. Then Observation in the morning and if no improvement start copper. Hope this makes sense….