Acro, Death Of

[3Twinklets]

I agree.Or something else went first, fouling the water.
I have some Acros that have done fine for months and months and then ,for whatever reason die overnight while the others are fine.
This may be, I am saying may be, what happened and since you were not able to get it out right away, destroyed the quality of your water.

Sorry about the loses. If you get a quick bloom like that some thing had to of caused it. Either an introduction of excessive nutrients or the sudden depletion of your biological filtration.

I thought I saw a sand cucumber in one of those pics? If so, Could that have gotten into a powerhead or stressed out before this happened? Cuc Nukes can wipe out your entire bacteria population real quick then new bacteria will frantically try to establish causing a bloom.

 

[mcarroll]

I've been doing this for 30+ years. I dosed a few months in the 90's. Why do you believe I'll start now?

It's not so much as we expect anything of you as it is us saying (what we all know, I think) that stony corals require some form of dosing/supplementation for anything other than short term success. They will use every last carbonate ion in the water to grow until the pH spikes/crashes and kills (maybe) everything.

Further, there are many ways to perform calcium and alkalinity maintenance other that the ones that get all the attention like two-part, kalk and the complex reactors you see - some no more difficult or time consuming than feeding your fish!

Just for one example (and hopefully not to belabor the point...too late? ),Tropic Marin makes an all in one powder that can be sprinkled right into the water...super easy, not well known. And I know people who are succeeding with it.

Anyway, not-dosing is certainly a valid decision and you still have tons of different coral to choose from, but if you really want to keep stony corals why not consider some alternatives?

Best of luck in any event! 60 cube is my current dream tank, so I can't wait to see yours back on its feet!

-Matt

 

[Liquid360]

Thanks so much Matt! I kinda sound like a putz when I say I've been doing this for awhile but was just trying to say I've been doing this awhile as well. I must however disagree with your take on keeping SPS. I've had very serious long term success... I'd currently have 30 year old Acro colonies were it not for hurricane Katrina. So I know without a doubt it can be done so long as you keep your livestock quantity within the support parameters of your tank... quite easily in fact.

 

[mcarroll]

Thanks so much Matt! I kinda sound like a putz when I say I've been doing this for awhile but was just trying to say I've been doing this awhile as well. I must however disagree with your take on keeping SPS. I've had very serious long term success... I'd currently have 30 year old Acro colonies were it not for hurricane Katrina. So I know without a doubt it can be done so long as you keep your livestock quantity within the support parameters of your tank... quite easily in fact.

True! Maybe even the easiest as well as least expensive strategy...but requires a lot of discipline. In fact we could call that the ultimate alk maintenance strategy IMO! (Coincidentally that's also the REAL cheapest and easiest strategy to get rid of hair algae too...but that's another thread. LOL.)

Honestly more should opt for this route IMO, but "more, more, more" is the usual way. (Anti-KISS)

-Matt

 

[jservedio]

I'd currently have 30 year old Acro colonies were it not for hurricane Katrina.

Sorry - I have to call you on this. Acropora hasn't even been commercially imported to the US for 30 years yet - it only started being imported in the early 90's and nearly 100% of it was only kept short term back then. In fact, commercial importation of ANY coral didn't start until 1984 and wasn't available cross country until ~1986. Assuming you had some of the first corals imported to the US still alive, they still wouldn't 30 if they were alive today. The only places with coral that old are public aquariums - specifically places like the Honolulu aquarium that are literally ocean fed. The first captive kept Acro was at the Honolulu Aquarium in 1972 by Bruce Carlson - and long term success wasn't had until the very late 70s and there are only a handful of those still alive around the country from back then - all in public aquariums. Even research centers don't have coral that old and didn't start keeping it alive outside of ocean-fed tanks until the 90s. Even the best known names in the hobby that have been on the frontier of keeping Acro at home - names like Sprung, Delbeek, Jaubert, etc. who literally wrote the books on this stuff, didn't start keeping Acro's until the early-mid 90s.

I'm sure you had old Acros, maybe even 12 or 15 years old, but definitely not 30 years old. That is simply not possible unless you worked at the Honolulu Aquarium in the early 70's and are counting their collection as your own...

 

[Liquid360]

My father was purchasing acropora in 1985. Sorry if this causes you problems but he did. He lives in Destin, FL. I just shot him an email to ask where he got it from. I was a kid at the time I didn't pay attention where it came from... but there's no doubt at all we had it in '85... my bad math but close to 30yrs. These are the only photos I have left of the tank...can't really see the Acro behind the carpet but I assure you it's there.

 

[jservedio]

For 1985, that tank looks incredible considering those are some of the earliest imported corals and they seem to match what was around back then - but I am still not seeing acros in that tank no matter how hard I look. I don't doubt your father kept early acros, and said they would probably be at least 12 - 15+ years, but double that age I don't think so. Here is the earliest known successful hobbyist acro: Historic Stuber Acropora photograph documents 25 years of stony coral reefing which was 1985 in Berlin. Like I said, I don't doubt you had old acros - but not THAT old. Sure, 1990s - no doubt. But mid-80's? I'll believe it when I see a picture.

 

[Liquid360]

I don't know what to tell you man. You can show me all the links and books you'd like, but I was there. You can't convince me I wasn't. I know they were acropora, a big word for a little kid. You're free to not believe me but this is fact, not opinion. I'm not a liar.

 

[Liquid360]

My father owned a large chemical company and was a chemical engineer. He was building protein skimmers before there were protein skimmers. He spent all his free time with his reef and so my bro and I were always with him. I know what I'm talking about.
Someone else may have been credited with being the first or among first to bring acropora to tanks but that doesn't mean others weren't doing it before.

 

[Connie]

I just want to add to Matt's comments --- the powder dosing he is talking about is Tropic Marin Bio-Calcium. I use it instead of dosing and the corals love it!

 

[Liquid360]

Thanks Connie

 

[jservedio]

My father owned a large chemical company and was a chemical engineer. He was building protein skimmers before there were protein skimmers. He spent all his free time with his reef and so my bro and I were always with him. I know what I'm talking about.
Someone else may have been credited with being the first or among first to bring acropora to tanks but that doesn't mean others weren't doing it before.

I would like nothing more than to believe you - truly. If you father was keeping Acros in 1985 and kept them alive up until 2006 that would be absolutely incredible and would mean that the Americans - NOT the Germans, were the first to do it. It would rewrite the entire history of our hobby - which basically says the Germans invented everything and were the pioneers of the hobby, and then a few years later we got it across the pond.

This could be huge - and if there is some evidence to show that - it would be great. However, there are dozens of sources showing Stuber to be the first to keep an Acro alive in a home aquarium. He is famous for this, and copies of that acro are still popular today, simply because it is the "First" acro in our hobby. If this isn't true, it would be very, very big news...

Same thing with Skimmers - motorized venturi skimmers became commercially available in 1981 and if he was building them prior to that - that would be huge.

It's not that I don't believe you - but all the evidence right now is pointing to the Germans and I form my opinions based on the facts.

 

[Liquid360]

This was mid-80's. this was my childhood and I've got no real desire to sway you. The fact that micro bubbles attracted proteins was common knowledge. Building a container with a pump and venturi valve wasn't high tech. I remember him talking about it while we walked the bay and saw all the foam coming off the water. Any engineer could figure this out. Again, the academics didn't survey Americans to figure out who was doing what/when. How could they? I'm certain my dad wasn't the first. Let me ask you, I'm sure you've done something you may have believed to be original... But how could u know? The world of publishing/academia couldn't be further separated from the rest of society. Plastic cylinder, a pump, tubing, valves.... you don't need commercial manufacturers to do this. And if you did for your own tank and there's no Internet how could anybody know who's doing what/when?
To believe that the first person to be published was the first person who did something is naive in my opinion. I'm not recommending you change your view of history for me. Honestly I couldn't care less... not trying to be a jerk but again this was my childhood and the basis for the relationship with my dad. The end.

 

[glb]

This was mid-80's. this was my childhood and I've got no real desire to sway you. The fact that micro bubbles attracted proteins was common knowledge. Building a container with a pump and venturi valve wasn't high tech. I remember him talking about it while we walked the bay and saw all the foam coming off the water. Any engineer could figure this out. Again, the academics didn't survey Americans to figure out who was doing what/when. How could they? I'm certain my dad wasn't the first. Let me ask you, I'm sure you've done something you may have believed to be original... But how could u know? The world of publishing/academia couldn't be further separated from the rest of society. Plastic cylinder, a pump, tubing, valves.... you don't need commercial manufacturers to do this. And if you did for your own tank and there's no Internet how could anybody know who's doing what/when?
To believe that the first person to be published was the first person who did something is naive in my opinion. I'm not recommending you change your view of history for me. Honestly I couldn't care less... not trying to be a jerk but again this was my childhood and the basis for the relationship with my dad. The end.

I agree. You were there. There shouldn't be any arguing about what you remember. Sheesh.

 

[Liquid360]

Thank you. I understand that there are often gross exaggeration on here. I even understand the need or desire to call somebody on it. However, this isn't one of those times.

 

[mcarroll]

Tunze, 1963 if we're talking earliest. FWIW, Oceanic has the earliest patent I could find in the US and that was 1993. (Great skimmer - own one. )

I've run into a small handful of people here in my area (1 from Hawaii) who were raising reefs in the mid 80's, so I don't see what's so unbelievable about this.

Acro or no, that was a nice looking tank.

-Matt

 

[Liquid360]

Thanks a lot!!! it was an awesome tank I appreciate the support a great deal!
Also when a patent is granted it only means u were the first to file, not the first to build it.

 

[mcarroll]

Thanks a lot!!! it was an awesome tank I appreciate the support a great deal!
Also when a patent is granted it only means u were the first to file, not the first to build it.

Of course. Just a point of reference vs the 1963 date as much as anything.

-Matt

 

[jservedio]

Thank you. I understand that there are often gross exaggeration on here. I even understand the need or desire to call somebody on it. However, this isn't one of those times.

I hear wild exaggerations on here every day and I never call them out - the only reason I called this out asking for some kind of proof is because you were using this claim as a point of authority on a subject - using it to bolster your argument. I will never argue about what you remember - or try and sway you on something like this - who am I to say he didn't do it? However, if you are going to make a claim that big, a claim that literally rewrites the history of the hobby, and use that claim as proof of your methodology - you better **** well have some proof if you don't want to get called on it.

The only reason I say anything is because you said you had nearly 30 year old acros (30 year old colonies - not that you have just always had at least 1 acro in your various tanks for the past 30 years) without the need to dose or do any other type of Alk/Ca/Mg management other than water changes to refute someone's statement that it doesn't work long term (I didn't say this).

Now - the oldest acros I have ever seen in person are in the 5-7 year range and every one of them is MASSIVE - most of the tables that age are 4+ feet across and the stags even bigger. The bushy colonies look like actual bushes. Lets use ORA's Red Planet Acro as an example - it is only 6 years old and it is a full 4 foot across giant chunk of aragonite - even after being propagated into one of the most popular corals in the industry. If only after 6 years of growth the red planet is that big, how insanely massive would it be after 30 years? See why I am so skeptical? You take plenty of pictures of your tank, but don't have a picture of a behemoth 30 year old colony that is supposedly the oldest captive hobbyist acro? You said he lost them to Katrina - that was in 2005 - the internet, digital cameras, and the entire online reefing community was over a decade old by that point - yet no pictures of it?

Do I believe your father has very old corals? Yes. Do I believe he has very old acros? Yes. Do I believe he has been keeping acros successfully since the mid/late 80s? Sure. Do I believe he had colonies of acro that lived continuously from 1985 - 2005? I would like to - but I can't without proof. Do I believe if that WERE true, it would be possible to have a colony that size (based on my viewing of colonies 1/5th that age) without heavily supplementing Ca, Alk, and Mg? No way.

Even if the colonies were killed during Katrina - just the dead skeleton alone for a coral like that would be worth several thousand dollars in the curio trade. No pictures of even the skeleton of it?

 

[glb]

I hear wild exaggerations on here every day and I never call them out - the only reason I called this out asking for some kind of proof is because you were using this claim as a point of authority on a subject - using it to bolster your argument. I will never argue about what you remember - or try and sway you on something like this - who am I to say he didn't do it? However, if you are going to make a claim that big, a claim that literally rewrites the history of the hobby, and use that claim as proof of your methodology - you better **** well have some proof if you don't want to get called on it.

The only reason I say anything is because you said you had nearly 30 year old acros (30 year old colonies - not that you have just always had at least 1 acro in your various tanks for the past 30 years) without the need to dose or do any other type of Alk/Ca/Mg management other than water changes to refute someone's statement that it doesn't work long term (I didn't say this).

Now - the oldest acros I have ever seen in person are in the 5-7 year range and every one of them is MASSIVE - most of the tables that age are 4+ feet across and the stags even bigger. The bushy colonies look like actual bushes. Lets use ORA's Red Planet Acro as an example - it is only 6 years old and it is a full 4 foot across giant chunk of aragonite - even after being propagated into one of the most popular corals in the industry. If only after 6 years of growth the red planet is that big, how insanely massive would it be after 30 years? See why I am so skeptical? You take plenty of pictures of your tank, but don't have a picture of a behemoth 30 year old colony that is supposedly the oldest captive hobbyist acro? You said he lost them to Katrina - that was in 2005 - the internet, digital cameras, and the entire online reefing community was over a decade old by that point - yet no pictures of it?

Do I believe your father has very old corals? Yes. Do I believe he has very old acros? Yes. Do I believe he has been keeping acros successfully since the mid/late 80s? Sure. Do I believe he had colonies of acro that lived continuously from 1985 - 2005? I would like to - but I can't without proof. Do I believe if that WERE true, it would be possible to have a colony that size (based on my viewing of colonies 1/5th that age) without heavily supplementing Ca, Alk, and Mg? No way.

Even if the colonies were killed during Katrina - just the dead skeleton alone for a coral like that would be worth several thousand dollars in the curio trade. No pictures of even the skeleton of it?

You seriously need to let this go.