TherealplexiG
Well-Known Member
LOL..
Acrylic Fabrication Q & A
- Thread starter Turbo's Aquatics
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- acrylic diy fabrication
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Pepcrylic
Active Member
LOL That guy posted some videos on the "other" forum a couple ,few years ago. James Acryilc beat him up so bad he pulled his posts. . I wonder how many people have had failed tank build thanks to him???
I've written couple more but they're taking forever to be approved. one is on a plastic bender table.
http://reef2reef.com/ams/author/cromag08.52250/
http://reef2reef.com/ams/author/cromag08.52250/
TherealplexiG
Well-Known Member
Lots of people..
In that latest video he mentions to wait for a minute or two until the pins..he uses Weldon 4..I think 2 min mark ain't possible..things go dry after 30 /40 sec with Weldon4...correct me if im wrong about it...
OP
OP
No you are correct there - 1 minute max on soak time, unless you are using a custom mix for thicker materials. You might be OK going longer than a minute on 1" and up, but again we're talking a custom mix and likely lots of experience by the time you get to that point...or at least, you should have a lot of experience before you tackle a build that requires 1"+.
Anything over 30 seconds of waiting time with material 1/2" or less and you will start to get dry out of the mush, and going 1 minute, it's going to have started to set up already. It will still squish out, but it will not be liquidy, so you wont get a curved fillet when the parts settle in but rather a "bead" which is still better than nothing because it prevents air intrusion into the joint. This is also assuming that your pieces all line up on the corners and such (i.e. nothing is causing the parts to "stand off" and allow a gap)
The reason I refrain from totally ripping this technique apart is because I haven't tried it myself. I have no problem saying that the pins method and the assembly order outlined in this thread is the best way to build a tank, hands down - and using foam-covered boards, shims, and garbage bag twist ties doesn't break the bank so it's not expensive either.
The nice thing about acrylic is that it is forgiving. This is also the part that makes it somewhat "dangerous" (I'm searching for a better word to describe what I mean). Because you can make a capillary weld look good, but that doesn't mean it's as good and definitely not better than a pin weld. You can master the technique and build an entire tank with cap welds and it will look good, you can fill it and it will hold water, and it might hold water for years. This is the thing that people will sit back and say "see, there is more than one way to build a tank". The difference is after 5 years. After 10 years. After 20 years. The difference is when you bump into the tank really hard, or back into it with a forklift. Literally, I've talked to people who have backed into an filled acrylic aquarium with a forklift and moved it but not broke it. Or maybe you lift it by the eurobrace. Things like that is where pin welds can make the difference between a tank that lasts a decade+ and/or survives through the idiot factor.
So it's harsh to say the guy is an idiot. For small tanks, you might be safe with using the cap weld technique if you have some handyman skills. For sumps, you could probably get away with it as well, because there is strength added with baffles and such. But people that cut corners to save time and money usually also cut corners on material cost without thinking about it, so they're likely to use extruded materials, off-brand cell cast, thinner materials than recommended, rimless when eurobraced is needed, pieced-together euro instead of one-piece, etc. All that can definitely add up to disaster.
So like I said, the IF factor is huge...if you use the right material, if you practice, if you let it cure long enough, if you put it on the proper stand, the list goes on...using an inferior bonding technique magnifies the IF factors. Why would you do that?
Anything over 30 seconds of waiting time with material 1/2" or less and you will start to get dry out of the mush, and going 1 minute, it's going to have started to set up already. It will still squish out, but it will not be liquidy, so you wont get a curved fillet when the parts settle in but rather a "bead" which is still better than nothing because it prevents air intrusion into the joint. This is also assuming that your pieces all line up on the corners and such (i.e. nothing is causing the parts to "stand off" and allow a gap)
The reason I refrain from totally ripping this technique apart is because I haven't tried it myself. I have no problem saying that the pins method and the assembly order outlined in this thread is the best way to build a tank, hands down - and using foam-covered boards, shims, and garbage bag twist ties doesn't break the bank so it's not expensive either.
The nice thing about acrylic is that it is forgiving. This is also the part that makes it somewhat "dangerous" (I'm searching for a better word to describe what I mean). Because you can make a capillary weld look good, but that doesn't mean it's as good and definitely not better than a pin weld. You can master the technique and build an entire tank with cap welds and it will look good, you can fill it and it will hold water, and it might hold water for years. This is the thing that people will sit back and say "see, there is more than one way to build a tank". The difference is after 5 years. After 10 years. After 20 years. The difference is when you bump into the tank really hard, or back into it with a forklift. Literally, I've talked to people who have backed into an filled acrylic aquarium with a forklift and moved it but not broke it. Or maybe you lift it by the eurobrace. Things like that is where pin welds can make the difference between a tank that lasts a decade+ and/or survives through the idiot factor.
So it's harsh to say the guy is an idiot. For small tanks, you might be safe with using the cap weld technique if you have some handyman skills. For sumps, you could probably get away with it as well, because there is strength added with baffles and such. But people that cut corners to save time and money usually also cut corners on material cost without thinking about it, so they're likely to use extruded materials, off-brand cell cast, thinner materials than recommended, rimless when eurobraced is needed, pieced-together euro instead of one-piece, etc. All that can definitely add up to disaster.
So like I said, the IF factor is huge...if you use the right material, if you practice, if you let it cure long enough, if you put it on the proper stand, the list goes on...using an inferior bonding technique magnifies the IF factors. Why would you do that?
TherealplexiG
Well-Known Member
@Floyd R Turbo
I was talking about commercial Weldon 4 not custom mixes...
That guy ain't idiot...sure he does have wonderful diy's..
But not when it comes to building glass aquariums..I'm very sure about that..and also acrylics as far as I have spent last 6 months or so experimenting..you sure are right there ain't no single way to skin a pig...but what that guy defines are rules of failure...when you preaching diy the method should be simple and foolproof...most of peeps who been looking at to his videos are novices, them essays been doing stuff for the first time..whatever it may be 360 deg view or some fancy 69 method of shooting his videos...he should refrain from posting such videos...imagine a 500 gallon failing somewhere via capillary bonds...
I was talking about commercial Weldon 4 not custom mixes...
That guy ain't idiot...sure he does have wonderful diy's..
But not when it comes to building glass aquariums..I'm very sure about that..and also acrylics as far as I have spent last 6 months or so experimenting..you sure are right there ain't no single way to skin a pig...but what that guy defines are rules of failure...when you preaching diy the method should be simple and foolproof...most of peeps who been looking at to his videos are novices, them essays been doing stuff for the first time..whatever it may be 360 deg view or some fancy 69 method of shooting his videos...he should refrain from posting such videos...imagine a 500 gallon failing somewhere via capillary bonds...
bella aqua
New Member
Hello
Thank you for all of the great info
I hope this isn't too off topic
What is the preferred bonding agent/glue for type 1 rigid pvc to Acrylic
Getting ready to build a 36" PVC sump with acrylic window
Any advice appreciated
Thank you
Thank you for all of the great info
I hope this isn't too off topic
What is the preferred bonding agent/glue for type 1 rigid pvc to Acrylic
Getting ready to build a 36" PVC sump with acrylic window
Any advice appreciated
Thank you
TherealplexiG
Well-Known Member
Out of curiosity, what would be your preferred method to weld PVC to PVC?
PVC to Acrylic>>>>>
You can use weldon 42 with dispensing gun....
Or weldon 40, or Acrifix 2R 0190....
It is two part reactive cement, has to be mixed in certain proportions to get the potting time right..
Two parts consists of resin (Base-MMA) and accelerator or curing agent (BPO- benzoyl peroxide liquidized in dibutyl phalatate).
42 is a bit forgiving, as it is provided with mixing nozzle which does mix it in right proportions..
If you're using manual method, it would be better if you got access to vacuum or degassing chamber or a vibratory table...
OP
OP
There are only a few companies out there that have mastered the technique of bonding acrylic to other material in a pressure vessel application, and they hold that as a closely guarded secret.
IIRC, while 42 and other products do indeed affect/bond dissimilar products, they don't perform this to the level of strength required for a pressure vessel.
If you are creating a vessel with all 5 or 6 sides being PVC, then cutting out a window on one side (like a eurobrace shape cutout on one of the vertical panels) and then bonding the acrylic panel on the inside (essentially laminating the acrylic to the PVC around the edges) then the water pressure would hold the piece together, and your bond would basically be for making it water-tight. That's a different story.
If you are talking about having one full panel being acrylic and bonded at the joints to a PVC panel, that's when you're getting into somewhat proprietary applications, and AFAIK you're not going to find that information easily. But if you do, please let us all know
IIRC, while 42 and other products do indeed affect/bond dissimilar products, they don't perform this to the level of strength required for a pressure vessel.
If you are creating a vessel with all 5 or 6 sides being PVC, then cutting out a window on one side (like a eurobrace shape cutout on one of the vertical panels) and then bonding the acrylic panel on the inside (essentially laminating the acrylic to the PVC around the edges) then the water pressure would hold the piece together, and your bond would basically be for making it water-tight. That's a different story.
If you are talking about having one full panel being acrylic and bonded at the joints to a PVC panel, that's when you're getting into somewhat proprietary applications, and AFAIK you're not going to find that information easily. But if you do, please let us all know
TherealplexiG
Well-Known Member
I guess he meant that but that's just a guess....
What level of strength we looking at?
Tensile of the bond?
Shear?
Peel?
like in numbers? Them BAR's or PSI's or ????
TherealplexiG
Well-Known Member
I will be making a tank for industrial use, 24" long, 24" deep, 80" tall.
Would be making a frame outta steel and fixing a viewing window of laminated glass.
But if i opt for acrylic window, what would be the optimum thickness????
@Floyd R Turbo @Lowell Lemon
Would be making a frame outta steel and fixing a viewing window of laminated glass.
But if i opt for acrylic window, what would be the optimum thickness????
@Floyd R Turbo @Lowell Lemon
There is no Weldon 4 anymore. it's now called scigrip 4, and as of recent it's no longer available to consumers. there's always the option of mixing your own solvent.
