Adding 2nd Batch of Fish to New Aquarium

[Patrick Cox]

I am starting a 150 gallon reef tank. I cycled with Dr Tim's and added my first batch of fish last week. 5 Anthias and 1 Goby. I have been monitoring ammonia and nitrite every day and have noticed no changes. I also do 2.2 gallon daily auto water changes. How long before I will know that the tank is ready for more fish load?

Thanks.

 

[AC1211]

I am starting a 150 gallon reef tank. I cycled with Dr Tim's and added my first batch of fish last week. 5 Anthias and 1 Goby. I have been monitoring ammonia and nitrite every day and have noticed no changes. I also do 2.2 gallon daily auto water changes. How long before I will know that the tank is ready for more fish load?

Thanks.

If it's been a week with no ammonia spike I think you are good to add more fish. Perhaps give them another week or two purely on the fact of them being anthias and gobies to help them settle without dealing with other fish.

 

[Patrick Cox]

If it's been a week with no ammonia spike I think you are good to add more fish. Perhaps give them another week or two purely on the fact of them being anthias and gobies to help them settle without dealing with other fish.

Ok, sounds good. I am ordering quarantined fish so it takes a few weeks anyway.

The goby is eating well. The anthias are eating but they are still pretty shy. I was hoping more fish would give them more confidence to come out more.

Thanks!

 

[doubleshot00]

If you dont have anything in the tank but 6 fish i would chill with the WC's. Unless you are having issues. If no ammonia is present go ahead and add the fish. How long has this tank been running?

 

[Patrick Cox]

I cycled it for about

If you dont have anything in the tank but 6 fish i would chill with the WC's. Unless you are having issues. If no ammonia is present go ahead and add the fish. How long has this tank been running?

I started the tank around March 15. It took about a month to cycle and then the fish were quarantined and just added last week. I fed the tank in between the Dr Tim's and adding the fish. The nitrates are testing pretty low but I started the water changes just to replace some of that water. I can stop for now if it's best to wait.

Thanks!

 

[doubleshot00]

I cycled it for about


I started the tank around March 15. It took about a month to cycle and then the fish were quarantined and just added last week. I fed the tank in between the Dr Tim's and adding the fish. The nitrates are testing pretty low but I started the water changes just to replace some of that water. I can stop for now if it's best to wait.

Thanks!

If your no3 is low i would do less WC's. Where are you getting the fish from? If your going to QT that takes a while until you can add.

 

[brandon429]

disease import is your fish kill risk, not cycling. if you're read the disease forum you can see that adding unprepped fish to a new tank results in mortality 90% of the time within a few mos, recommend= re read that forum

Fish Disease Treatment and Diagnosis

A forum for discussing treatment and diagnosing saltwater reef fish.

www.reef2reef.com

this isn't being bleak, it's relaying the fact you're likely to kill these fish before Thanksgiving by stocking them this way. only being real, based on that forum and it's daily help posts, not being mean. I know in the end you want your fish, $, to live vs die and that's the killer not being addressed.

also factors: by stocking fish first, even if they're quarantined, you're about to create a reef with wet parts from a fish store over the next 2 years and every entrant unfallowed removes any qt effort.

stock your tank in this order, opposite of the current way:

Has anyone done coral/inverts only and no fish at first?

Fish seem to be the main cause of disruption in a display tank, given the current circumstances in the hobby with pests (ich, velvet, parasites, etc.). I have been in this hobby for 18 years, and the amount of pests that are showing up lately is much more (could also be the fact that we have...

www.reef2reef.com

inverts first, reef built first, then fish/treated and qt go in last-after you fallow the whole reef tank. any new entrants thereafter get fallowed just the same, this is biosecurity.

 

[Patrick Cox]

disease import is your fish kill risk, not cycling. if you're read the disease forum you can see that adding unprepped fish to a new tank results in mortality 90% of the time within a few mos, recommend= re read that forum

Fish Disease Treatment and Diagnosis

A forum for discussing treatment and diagnosing saltwater reef fish.

www.reef2reef.com

this isn't being bleak, it's relaying the fact you're likely to kill these fish before Thanksgiving by stocking them this way. only being real, based on that forum and it's daily help posts, not being mean. I know in the end you want your fish, $, to live vs die and that's the killer not being addressed.

also factors: by stocking fish first, even if they're quarantined, you're about to create a reef with wet parts from a fish store over the next 2 years and every entrant unfallowed removes any qt effort.

stock your tank in this order, opposite of the current way:

Has anyone done coral/inverts only and no fish at first?

Fish seem to be the main cause of disruption in a display tank, given the current circumstances in the hobby with pests (ich, velvet, parasites, etc.). I have been in this hobby for 18 years, and the amount of pests that are showing up lately is much more (could also be the fact that we have...

www.reef2reef.com

inverts first, reef built first, then fish/treated and qt go in last-after you fallow the whole reef tank. any new entrants thereafter get fallowed just the same, this is biosecurity.

Thanks for sharing this. I will look over what you linked.

Question for you... What does "unprepped fish" mean? If it means not quarantined, what does quarantined mean? Does it matter if I quarantine the fish vs someone who I trust quarantining and medicating the fish as needed?

Thanks.

 

[Patrick Cox]

If your no3 is low i would do less WC's. Where are you getting the fish from? If your going to QT that takes a while until you can add.

I got my fish from Dr Reef. I bought "quarantined".

Current Nitrate is 7.4.

Thanks.

 

[vetteguy53081]

I am starting a 150 gallon reef tank. I cycled with Dr Tim's and added my first batch of fish last week. 5 Anthias and 1 Goby. I have been monitoring ammonia and nitrite every day and have noticed no changes. I also do 2.2 gallon daily auto water changes. How long before I will know that the tank is ready for more fish load?

Thanks.

Keep in mind, addition of first batch will have increased your tanks' bioload. Adding fish thereafter will exceed what the bacteria in the tank can endure which is why its best to slowly add fish so tank can adapt to new loads. I would do so a couple every 3 weeks

 

[jda]

The nitrifying bacteria in your tank can quickly multiply, but part of actually being fully cycled (instead of some made up words) is the ability for the tank to instantly be able to handle dynamic changes. There is no harm in waiting a bit more. If you have some surface and film algae, then you are likely in a good place. You are probably in a good place to add more fish anyway, but batches are always a risk since gill damage can happen quicker than bacteria can multiply.

As far as ammonia poisoning, as long as you go slow, you will have no issues. Batches are not slow.

Just buying quarantined fish is not enough to prevent disease and death. If you get one snail, hermit, coral, etc. that is also not been quarantined, they can have a tomont on it and give it to all of your fish. Plus, I hate to be a wet blanket, but even QT'd fish might have things slip through the cracks at the facility. QT'd fish are a nice start most of the time, but not even close to the end.

Without a fish AND coral QT tank your options are disease control. The first step in disease control is to make sure that your current fish are well acclimated, well fed and will eat pellets and flake if you need to dose them with some medication. They need to be non-skittish and happy to see you. Healthy fish can often fight back disease if they need to. Second, a tank with a diverse and well populated microfauna can help to eat diseases when they fall off of the fish to continue their life cycle in the sand and rocks - bottled bacteria cannot do this and you need worms, pods, starfish, more bacteria that is in a bottle, etc. Third, being well past the ulgy stages where you will be siphoning dinos, treating for cyano and all of that is a good thing - lots of stress to fish with daily interruptions to stave off the ulgy phases.

The best thing to do might be to order a pack of live rock from Florida somewhere. It will have all of the micro and macro fauna on it that you need to both help with fish diseases and also populate some of your new rock so that dinos and cyano have no place to get a foothold. It will take a few months to spread and populate. The money that you save on dead fish, treatments, chemicals and media is well worth it, IMO.

 

[Patrick Cox]

The nitrifying bacteria in your tank can quickly multiply, but part of actually being fully cycled (instead of some made up words) is the ability for the tank to instantly be able to handle dynamic changes. There is no harm in waiting a bit more. If you have some surface and film algae, then you are likely in a good place. You are probably in a good place to add more fish anyway, but batches are always a risk since gill damage can happen quicker than bacteria can multiply.

As far as ammonia poisoning, as long as you go slow, you will have no issues. Batches are not slow.

Just buying quarantined fish is not enough to prevent disease and death. If you get one snail, hermit, coral, etc. that is also not been quarantined, they can have a tomont on it and give it to all of your fish. Plus, I hate to be a wet blanket, but even QT'd fish might have things slip through the cracks at the facility. QT'd fish are a nice start most of the time, but not even close to the end.

Without a fish AND coral QT tank your options are disease control. The first step in disease control is to make sure that your current fish are well acclimated, well fed and will eat pellets and flake if you need to dose them with some medication. They need to be non-skittish and happy to see you. Healthy fish can often fight back disease if they need to. Second, a tank with a diverse and well populated microfauna can help to eat diseases when they fall off of the fish to continue their life cycle in the sand and rocks - bottled bacteria cannot do this and you need worms, pods, starfish, more bacteria that is in a bottle, etc. Third, being well past the ulgy stages where you will be siphoning dinos, treating for cyano and all of that is a good thing - lots of stress to fish with daily interruptions to stave off the ulgy phases.

The best thing to do might be to order a pack of live rock from Florida somewhere. It will have all of the micro and macro fauna on it that you need to both help with fish diseases and also populate some of your new rock so that dinos and cyano have no place to get a foothold. It will take a few months to spread and populate. The money that you save on dead fish, treatments, chemicals and media is well worth it, IMO.

Thanks for posting. This is all great information. A few more questions if you don't mind...

1. I am NOT currently running my lights. I saw BRS talk about starting the tank without running the lights for a while so that is why. Do you agree with this approach or should I be running lights some? I have no algae in the tank and I assume this is the reason.

2. if I order some Live Rock from Tampa Bay Saltwater or similar, can I put it in the tank for a period of time and then remove it? I have an aquascape that I like that was built with dry rock.

3. Any bottled products you recommend to be good for adding diversity?

Thanks again!

 

[brandon429]

The issue is all the things you stock after the fish. One snail/ undoes what you paid for quarantine

Those fish should go in last, like the second example link posted

You have to fallow everything you add now, separately, or the $ you paid for the fish is wasted. It's too early to stock fish but not due to the cycle.

I'm truly interested in your takeaway after reading a while in the disease forum, does it make sense how the fish are at risk here or does it make me sound mean to relay that info, directly from the disease forum/not intended for sure. there's simply no way to stock anthias and other sensitive mixes in a brand new tank while importing skip fallow items from a pet store over the next several years, safely. the results are on file in the forum each day, big losses $

*if you have a second tank and are willing to restart it with every new entrant, and re fallow them individually, that keeps the safety chain linked still. most won't/don't do that = the daily posts in the forum. since you're spending that $ I thought it was really important to discuss, that your cycle isn't the limiting factor at all.

 

[jda]

If that rock scape does not have just stacked rock where the fish can completely hide and get away, this can add to stress too. Caves and arches and things that him and like are not always great for fish.

Once the fauna has spread to everything, then you are probably good. This can take many months or a year.

 

[Patrick Cox]

If that rock scape does not have just stacked rock where the fish can completely hide and get away, this can add to stress too. Caves and arches and things that him and like are not always great for fish.

Once the fauna has spread to everything, then you are probably good. This can take many months or a year.

Thanks. And there are plenty of hiding spots.

 

[jda]

Leaving the lights off is fine. Dinos, cyano and the uglies are a product of having sterile and clean places for them to grow and they are faster than the competition. You will need the lights on if you get real live rock, but wait until then. Maybe you will get some film algae and bacteria to cover some of those surfaces.

Waiting to get fish until you get all of your crew is a fools errand by short term thinkers. You will eventually need more crew and you cannot just get rid of all of your fish to do this. Plus, corals can carry the same things and need to be after the fish. Coral QT is the answer long term, but few can do it and even less do it right. Plus, the crew and corals needs fish waste to get them things to eat.
Waiting to get fish until you get all of your crew is a fools errand by short term thinkers. You will eventually need more crew and you cannot just get rid of all of your fish to do this. Plus, corals can carry the same things and need to be after the fish. Coral QT is the answer long term, but few can do it and even less do it right. Plus, the crew and corals needs fish waste to get them things to eat.

 

[Patrick Cox]

...You will eventually need more crew and you cannot just get rid of all of your fish to do this...

I was thinking the same thing. What happens when snails have to be replaced? Thanks!

 

[brandon429]

you buy them, then fallow the snails/new clean up crew/ in a separate holding tank for your selected fallow period after researching in the disease forum (some choose speedy 45 day fallow with more risk quicker turnaround, some choose 90 day fallow much slower and less pass through risk, you get to choose) then you can add them. same goes for new corals, anything wet from a pet store. adding fish at this stage requires you to own a separate holding tank. It's important to know that no reef tank on this site has ever exceeded the bioload carry limit afforded by the surface area you just cycled up by adding new fish. it has not happened one time, an example can't be linked for us to read. cycling isn't your risk, it's disease vector pass-through.

the reason it's important to know when you're done cycling is so you can stop doubting and hesitation in areas that are handled (the cycle) and instead aim all your concerns into studies from Jays disease forum. the degree of rocks you just cycled up will handle any degree of common fish loading for that sized tank

it's true TBS rock included would cast off some biome benefit, you'll also get some hitchhikers to manage like algae/various animals/but those were coming anyway as hangers on from pet store fare you'll be adding over the coming months.

 

[jda]

You have to start adding crew even earlier if they go 70+ days fallow without fish, especially the snails. Eating nori does not usually work. Most snails and crabs only live a few years, anyway, with most shrimp at 3 years. Coral QT works. Nearly nobody does it. Nearly nobody who does do it has done it right where we are talking about never putting your arm, buckets or any other equipment in either tank.

I know that you can add ammonium (nitrogen), sulphur, phosphorous and carbon sources so that the tank can grow things for the snails to eat, but this might as well be a differential equation to most people new to the hobby.

Most folks get around to disease management. With a mature tank with real ocean fauna, this works quite well. I have written about it quite a bit and in my build thread. I don't use meds, hypo or anything on my fish since I know that I will never coral QT right and don't have any kind of illusions that I can keep all disease out. I do have introduction tanks where I keep fish until they are ready to go into the display (non skittish, eating everything, etc.) that are built like reefs with rock, sand and microfauna.

Either can work. Since you already have fish in your tank, you are looking at management unless you catch them all and then a second tank for fish QT and a third tank for Coral QT is an option.

The dumbness that I am seeing around quick coral/invert QT is astonishing. Lately, a trend of raising the temp up quite a bit to speed up the ich lifecycle when most of the snails that we keep already have their lives shortened at 78 degree temperatures. ...be careful who you listen to... it is a dangerous web out there...

 

[brandon429]

if you wanted to increase filtration you'd add more surface area, which you don't need. old cycling science is always hyperfocused incorrectly on # of bacterial cells, which you have at maximum given the # of days and cycling approach you used. you can't increase bacterial counts on your rocks, you'd have to add more room to gain more bacteria, and you don't need more room. no tank on this site runs shy of needed surface area, you're likely 3x over the need for your degree of live rock

post a full tank picture if you'd like to get a specific feedback on your biofiltration ability as it stands now.

water shear, natural vital space competition all control the degree of bacteria on your rocks (they only stack so high, to get more presentation to wastewater you'd have to add more room for them to attach, which you don't need)

if water shear and space competition didn't naturally regulate our bacteria, all our tanks would fill up and go opaque (which is what happens during power loss events: re, no water shear)


see this thread: it's forty pages of updated cycling science vs old that's how we controlled all the biofilters in these tanks 100% safetly. you can learn about updated cycling science here below, it's why I'm stating your cycle isn't a concern...from the practice in this thread.

How to unstick any seemingly stuck cycle

Updated Cycling Science in Action This is a testless reef tank cycling thread, the only one from any board. If you ever had trouble with reef tank cycling in the past, you won't any longer after working some jobs with us. chances are you are using/about to use a method of reef tank cycling...

www.reef2reef.com

notice how 100% of tanks are fine, and carrying the bioload on the date we stated it was ready? your tank is exactly like those: you have no risk of cycle issues only of disease vectoring into brand new rocks with no suppression abilities at all.

a marker that you're being taught old cycling science is that surface area factors are never requested nor factored. if the sole focus is on # of bacteria, that's old cycling science and we don't have any examples on the entire site of a reef tank failing to keep it's bioload accurately, after the cycle which you've completed.