Adding Bacteria to Established 3+ Yr Tank

[RobZilla04]

As our systems age, should we be occasionally be adding a source of beneficial bacteria to them?

Possibly just as a source to add diversity and help stabilize the system?

A picture, since everyone around here loves them; here is my father's day gift from my eight year old son. Almost brought me to tears. This currently hangs in my office.

 

[JumboShrimp]

Great question, and even greater photo!

 

[LiveWire]

I would believe that new bacteria are forming as others die off but @Randy Holmes-Farley would be able to answer how long bacteria live and thrive in a reef tank and if new should be added from time to time. I do like the picture. I have a great one that my daughter made me a few years back that i will have to post up sometime. It is in the living room now but will be going in my new fish room for sure.

 

[4n2xtacy]

Rule of thumb is that the older our aquarium gets, the more diverse bacteria we get. Usually adding bacteria is used to help boost new aquarium cycles. Using a microscope, u could see the millions of bacteria swimming in your tank. Also it depends on your filtration system. If you have, for instance a very strong UV sterilizer that kills off your bacteria, and have ran that way for 3years, then adding more bacteria would only kill them to maintain the same population your tank had in 3years. *just my opinion*

That picture is super beautiful. Best father's day gift from an incredibly talented kid...love it.

 

[99Problems]

I don't have a scientific answer for you, but I only add bacteria if I do something major that might weaken the bio filter. If you do your maintenance then everything pretty much takes care of itself. There's a thing called old tank syndrone, but I think you'd have a ton of issues before that diagnosis

 

[brandon429]

OTS is caused by compounding detritus in the tank we have beaten it/ made it a condition of the past with the change to bare bottom, or clean sand tanks. We can make a reef tank run infinite biological lifespan with no crash, no ots, simply w water changes and detritus cleaning. Multiple generations of owners, passed down generations is possible. All by managing detritus, specifically. The single most important aspect of the oldest home tank, Paul B, is that he ejects detritus from the bed and then out of the tank with diatom filtration occasionally. The single most important design character of the oldest pico tank is detritus buildup prevention, the oldest tanks across modes in the hobby are simply not allowing compounding waste

But they did want that waste in the tank, locked in, during the 90s so OTS was the symptom term for 20 yrs until that took a back seat to what works for the masses, a non filthy rotting sandbed.

It isn't required to supplement bacteria at any time to an aging reef, they self maintain after cycling as long as hydration remains bc every fish, coral snail and sand pebble xferred among tanks made a permanent heterotrophic mix of bacteria. Many people choose to dose supporting bac anyway. It's harmless, it helps fund the retail industry who invent new things etc

Legit to try bac additives during invasion challenges, dinos and cyano challenges in large tanks can be helped with certain competing strain additives. They're usually a symptom of detritus in the tank however-threads like the sand rinse thread simply clean out aquariums in order to stop the invasion. simply managing detritus is the #1 requirement for long term aging--then the corals don't get disease, the rocks are reef rocks purple coralline forever, organic waste management makes the reef tank perpetually self sustenant just shy of required feed input, water changes or alt nitrogenous waste controls

 

[RobZilla04]

I don't have a scientific answer for you, but I only add bacteria if I do something major that might weaken the bio filter. If you do your maintenance then everything pretty much takes care of itself. There's a thing called old tank syndrone, but I think you'd have a ton of issues before that diagnosis

OTS is caused by compounding detritus in the tank we have beaten it/ made it a condition of the past with the change to bare bottom, or clean sand tanks. We can make a reef tank run infinite biological lifespan with no crash, no ots, simply w water changes and detritus cleaning

It isn't required to supplement bacteria at any time to an aging reef, they self maintain after cycling as long as hydration remains

So in that case, what leads to OTS? Seen many threads and videos related to complete die off with no causality found.

Doesn't this maintenance and stability in turn end the need for water changes? Take a two-part with trace elements included (supplementation) coupled with a filtration system, mechanical/biological, to take care of nuisance nutrients (removal), why are water changes continually stressed?

Shouldn't they be "as needed" to either remove excess or add necessity?

Could annually adding to the beneficial bacteria diversity curb the chances of OTS?

 

[brandon429]

A better way to prove the mechanism is to build and test an infinite lifespan system, what made others fail has too many unspoken variables to depend upon for reverse engineering/getting a win.

I would look to the live successful old tanks for input v the loss ones. Degrees that aquarists veer away from documented successful aging modes impact results, it's possible to copy basic setup mechanisms and get consistent aging results/invasion control results etc

A large portion of tank losses are give ups based on invasion, being able to enjoy the tank determines lifespan too, and we've strongly linked detritus storage and tank take-down invasions in our large work threads. To arrive at the cause and reversal of ots we can look to threads and mega old aquaria that test the condition or document tank turnarounds solely by managing detritus. It's not possible for an aquarium to develop OTS if they run the actions from the sand rinse thread. I realize anyone can type anything, but we are out to 24 pages of real outcome patterns

 

[Paul Sands]

You may find this article by Julian Sprung interesting. I guess it could be summarized by answering your question as “maybe”. It is from 2006, so it’s almost 15 years old and the hobby has evolved since then.

There are also numerous newer products like Dr Tim’s waste away that claim to increase beneficial bacteria in both new and old tanks.

https://www.advancedaquarist.com/2006/10/aafeature

 

[RobZilla04]

You may find this article by Julian Sprung interesting. I guess it could be summarized by answering your question as “maybe”. It is from 2006, so it’s almost 15 years old and the hobby has evolved since then.

There are also numerous newer products like Dr Tim’s waste away that claim to increase beneficial bacteria in both new and old tanks.

https://www.advancedaquarist.com/2006/10/aafeature

"The development of bacteria populations and other fauna within the substrata in an aquarium helps to break down allelopathic compounds quickly, and of course it is possible that protein skimmers, ozone, or activated carbon helps to keep them in check. Why they might intermittently wreak havoc, if in fact they do, is a potential answer to the question of what old tank syndrome really is." ~ Old Tank Syndrom - Julian Sprung

^ The basis of my inquiry.

As for the periodic sand changes, isn't that mostly a function of providing both new surfaces for bacteria to populate and introduction of new bacteria?

Periodic vacuuming and sifting of the accessible portions of the sand bed would effectively provide oxygenation, manage detritus buildup, and maintain a healthy environment. Thus no need to change the sand?

 

[brandon429]

yes agreed the sand rinse thread is just an extreme way of preventing it. Blusop's white sand method is just intermittent cleaning, no takedown, and the same outcome. agreed

the main goal of the sand rinse thread and all its tap water rinsing harshness is to force people to let go of dated views on microbiology. Get them to over accessing the tank, repeatedly using skip cycle approaches that do not kill the system. Then when medium action is required, the tap rinse made it seem funny easy. we use that cleaning access to move tanks without loss, to age them without loss, and to try and beat cyano invasions without using meds.

So far, we're barely out of the max water change / 20% etweeks phenomena, again a product of the 90s storage mode so literally any form of sandbed maintenance is going to increase positive outcome for the masses who are currently designing new tanks. I think accessibility is the key in today's reefing game, have no zone you can't access to make it do your bidding $

no more tanks determining their own biological outcome, now we tell them what container to grow in, and how long to do it.

 

[Nano sapiens]

Once various bacteria are introduced into our reef tanks, they typically persist indefinitely unless we do something drastic to effect their numbers and composition. IME, providing consistent normal reef tank conditions is all that is required, but as mentioned, adding additional beneficial bacteria is optional.

OTS (or LARS, if you prefer) is another subject that I believe is related to poor, or lack of, proper husbandry.

 

[ReeferReefer]

I agree. No bacteria is needed.

 

[Paul Sands]

Aurgh. Duplicate.

 

[lapin]

As our systems age, should we be occasionally be adding a source of beneficial bacteria to them?

Possibly just as a source to add diversity and help stabilize the system?

Yes and no.
If we could determine the exact bacteria strains our tank would benefit from. Then yes.
If not then, let the experiment begin. Anyone?

 

[brandon429]

Nano Sapiens

for exactly one hour during work Ive been reviewing what LARS stands for. of all the battles forged about tank aging, and what causes it, how did I not come across that abbreviation

And when I figured it out at minute :55, if Id have been drinking coke it would have shot out my nose that's funny sir. LARS is indeed real, and pervasive, and I'm against it fully lol

 

[Nano sapiens]

"The development of bacteria populations and other fauna within the substrata in an aquarium helps to break down allelopathic compounds quickly, and of course it is possible that protein skimmers, ozone, or activated carbon helps to keep them in check. Why they might intermittently wreak havoc, if in fact they do, is a potential answer to the question of what old tank syndrome really is." ~ Old Tank Syndrom - Julian Sprung

^ The basis of my inquiry.

As for the periodic sand changes, isn't that mostly a function of providing both new surfaces for bacteria to populate and introduction of new bacteria?

Periodic vacuuming and sifting of the accessible portions of the sand bed would effectively provide oxygenation, manage detritus buildup, and maintain a healthy environment. Thus no need to change the sand?

So in that case, what leads to OTS? Seen many threads and videos related to complete die off with no causality found.

Doesn't this maintenance and stability in turn end the need for water changes? Take a two-part with trace elements included (supplementation) coupled with a filtration system, mechanical/biological, to take care of nuisance nutrients (removal), why are water changes continually stressed?

Shouldn't they be "as needed" to either remove excess or add necessity?

Could annually adding to the beneficial bacteria diversity curb the chances of OTS?

One proposed mechanism for what caused OTS can be thought of as a complex, self-feeding chain of events. What is known is that an increase in nutrients alone doesn't kill coral. However, high levels of DOC does. High nutrient levels tend to fuel algae growth. Algae release excess photosynthate (DOC) into the surroundings. High DOC stimulates the coral's resident microbes to reproduce rapidly which uses up the local oxygen. So, basically, in this scenario the corals suffocate. On top of this, high DOC also fuels microbial life in the environment, including pathogens, that negatively effect coral. So coral's die releasing more nutrients, fueling more algae/microbes...and things go from bad to worse until the system collapses.

IME, replacing a sand bed in a properly maintained reef aquarium is not necessary. I have a sand bed that is now over 20 years old and has been in two long term systems.

 

[RobZilla04]

Nano Sapiens

for exactly one hour during work Ive been reviewing what LARS stands for. of all the battles forged about tank aging, and what causes it, how did I not come across that abbreviation

And when I figured it out at minute :55, if Id have been drinking coke it would have shot out my nose that's funny sir. LARS is indeed real, and pervasive, and I'm against it fully lol

Well, what does it stand for?

 

[diverpat]

Yes and no.
If we could determine the exact bacteria strains our tank would benefit from. Then yes.
If not then, let the experiment begin. Anyone?

I use a probiotic that contains 3 Bacillius species in my tank. I don’t have another tank to compare it to but my tank has been running incredibly clean. It’s still young at six months but time may tell if it’s really helping out.

We use this probiotic in marine finfish larviculture where it helps keep the tanks clean. We used to have cyano and pseudomonas outbreaks during flounder larval stages. Once we started using the probiotics, the issues stopped.

I feel it helps break down organics which common nitrifiers don’t touch. It’s hopefully outcompeting any less desirable bacteria. Our lab is trying to get grants to study the effects of probiotics in marine systems but so far we aren’t having any success.

 

[brandon429]

extremely proactive reefer syndrome

lazy ___ reefer syndrome bwaha love it.
in all fairness the 90s crew was not lazy they just oversold natural mineralization. all that detritus was supposed to be neutralized by sand bed dynamics, and it probably is in a some percentage of tanks but not the majority.