Addressing an imbalance in Nitrate and Phosphate

wesman42 · Mar 16, 2019

My Phosphates are 0.08 and my nitrates are around 40. I know this is imbalanced but having trouble with the executive decision making behind how to address it.

Do I stop GFO and start carbon dosing? Do I stop GFO, do multiple water changes, and let nutrients rise? Do I even stop GFO?

I was running a refugium for export before I started dosing vibrant. Now, since the refugium is down, I haven't implemented any other method of export outside of water changes.

SeaDweller · Mar 16, 2019

How large is the system and how large are your WC? If you have the means to do like 50% water changes without it disrupting much, then I’d do multiples WC like that. It’s the quickest way I’ve found to reduce NO3, old tried and true method. I went from 200 ppm down to 25 in about 2 weeks on a 240 tank, and now have problems trying to keep NO3 up. My tank is dialed in right now, and I do run a sulfur reactor but that coincidentally started to work well after I got down to 10% total NO3 in my system.

O'l Salty · Mar 16, 2019

I never use GFO. It strips the water of phosphates. .08 is a good place to be. Why do you want to change your parameters? Are you have any problems with the tank? Changing water parameters manually can lead to many problems.

wesman42 · Mar 16, 2019

O'l Salty said:
I never use GFO. It strips the water of phosphates. .08 is a good place to be. Why do you want to change your parameters? Are you have any problems with the tank? Changing water parameters manually can lead to many problems.

Well the imbalance came to light because I have Dinos. My nutrients are already raised....so idk what the deal is. I took GFO offline. Phosphates and nitrates are both entirely detectable, so I'm really not sure why it's still an issue.

O'l Salty · Mar 16, 2019

wesman42 said:
Well the imbalance came to light because I have Dinos. My nutrients are already raised....so idk what the deal is. I took GFO offline. Phosphates and nitrates are both entirely detectable, so I'm really not sure why it's still an issue.

Do you still have Dino's?

wesman42 · Mar 16, 2019

O'l Salty said:
Do you still have Dino's?

Yes I do. I will be adding a UV sterilizer shortly as well, though I doubt that's a permanent fix. Nothing with my setup and Dinos is a normal case for Dinos or the dino thread. It's really quite strange.

It happened after I used chemiclean....which makes a lot of sense. Maybe the system just needs time?

IslandLifeReef · Mar 16, 2019

wesman42 said:
My Phosphates are 0.08 and my nitrates are around 40. I know this is imbalanced but having trouble with the executive decision making behind how to address it.

Do I stop GFO and start carbon dosing? Do I stop GFO, do multiple water changes, and let nutrients rise? Do I even stop GFO?

I was running a refugium for export before I started dosing vibrant. Now, since the refugium is down, I haven't implemented any other method of export outside of water changes.

As I said on the Vibrant thread addressing your issue, I would recommend picking one method and sticking with it. I think your dino's appeared because you killed off most of the algae and cyano that was competing with it. Too many different additives at once. Your numbers are not that far out of wack, and if you start chasing numbers, you will cause more problems.

wesman42 · Mar 16, 2019

IslandLifeReef said:
As I said on the Vibrant thread addressing your issue, I would recommend picking one method and sticking with it. I think your dino's appeared because you killed off most of the algae and cyano that was competing with it. Too many different additives at once. Your numbers are not that far out of wack, and if you start chasing numbers, you will cause more problems.

That's fair. I'm worried about my corals getting smothered by them though. I've been turkey basting daily. I'm continuing to dose vibrant.

Randy Holmes-Farley · Mar 16, 2019

I’d ignore the balance issue and target getting each into the zone where you want them. IMO, I’d look to lower nitrate in your case.

IslandLifeReef · Mar 16, 2019

wesman42 said:
That's fair. I'm worried about my corals getting smothered by them though. I've been turkey basting daily. I'm continuing to dose vibrant.

I had a Dino battle recently. I used Vibrant, vacuumed out as much of the Dino's as I could once or twice a day. I also added pods and dosed phytoplankton to help with diversity. A couple of weeks later, it was much better. I got a little cyano after, but that is fine. It will run its course. Whatever you decide to do, just take things slow. That's my two cents.

O'l Salty · Mar 16, 2019

wesman42 said:
Yes I do. I will be adding a UV sterilizer shortly as well, though I doubt that's a permanent fix. Nothing with my setup and Dinos is a normal case for Dinos or the dino thread. It's really quite strange.

It happened after I used chemiclean....which makes a lot of sense. Maybe the system just needs time?

I ended up curing mine with a UV filter. I was dino free in 3 days. That was over a year ago and they haven't come back although I do still run the UV filter. I am using a 20W uv filter on a 40 gallon tank.

Randy Holmes-Farley · Mar 17, 2019

O'l Salty said:
I ended up curing mine with a UV filter. I was dino free in 3 days. That was over a year ago and they haven't come back although I do still run the UV filter. I am using a 20W uv filter on a 40 gallon tank.

FWIW, most people have not been successful getting rid of dinos using just a uv.

wesman42 · Mar 17, 2019

Randy Holmes-Farley said:
FWIW, most people have not been successful getting rid of dinos using just a uv.

I am aware that dinos require a multifaceted approach in order to address the HOW they're able to propagate uncontested. I ordered gracilaria seeing as it seems to be unaffected by Vibrant through my research. I'm going for biodiversity, keeping nutrients at reasonable levels, and UV if the prior 2 do not work. I'll be identifying which type of dinos I've got as well once I'm able to use my aunt's microscope (she's a pathologist).

Outside of those steps, I believe having nutrients within target range should automatically help, unless I'm way off here.

MrObscura · Mar 17, 2019

I'm surprised you have dinos with those levels, they look good to me. Sure no3 could be a little lower but it's nothing critical.

Have you tried just leaving the tank alone for a while with those levels? If not try that, don't clean anything or do any water changes. Let the glass become impossible to see through.

wesman42 · Mar 17, 2019

MrObscura said:
I'm surprised you have dinos with those levels, they look good to me. Sure no3 could be a little lower but it's nothing critical.

Have you tried just leaving the tank alone for a while with those levels? If not try that, don't clean anything or do any water changes. Let the glass become impossible to see through.

It's been around a week or so since the dinos took over after my chemiclean treatment. Chemiclean apparently killed WAY more biodiversity than just the strain(s) of bacteria involved in cyano. I took GFO offline temporarily to get it up to 0.1 or so... I planned on doing a series of water changes to bring both phos and nitrates down. I'm worried about my 2-part though, not doing water changes is something that scares me because if my dosing is over/under a little for the week then it gets a nice reset after water change. My salt doesn't have organics, so I'm not sure what would be feeding the dinos through my water changes.

MrObscura · Mar 17, 2019

The not doing waterchanges isn't so much about fueling dinos with the salt mix but about allowing other algae to grow. I suppose you could do some, but not too large, you want no3 and po4 to stay rather elivated, but dont clean anything.

Though dosing shouldn't be off enough that going without a waterchange shifts dkh too much.

wesman42 · Mar 17, 2019

MrObscura said:
The not doing waterchanges isn't so much about fueling dinos with the salt mix but about allowing other algae to grow. I suppose you could do some, but not too large, you want no3 and po4 to stay rather elivated, but dont clean anything.

Though dosing shouldn't be off enough that going without a waterchange shifts dkh too much.

See that's what I'm really concerned about. I have a bubble algae infestation that's not even half destroyed through my use of vibrant. I could keep dosing vibrant, but the main pretense is that you should be doing water changes. At this point, I'd rather have dinos than the REALLY invasive species of bubble algae that has been ravaging the tank since its inception. If the process of getting rid of dinos, allows the bubble algae to grow back then I might as well break down the tank now and cut my losses. I'm not interested in an infinite loop between bubble algae that suffocates my corals, and quite frankly the dinos are less invasive than the bubble algae at this point in time.

I've got 3 emerald crabs which don't even begin to control it, so vibrant was my last ditch anyway. It was working until I used chemiclean and threw things off.

Also, my tank parameters are so elevated that I don't believe water changes alone would decrease nitrates enough for them to reach 0, or even close to 0.

O'l Salty · Mar 17, 2019

Randy Holmes-Farley said:
FWIW, most people have not been successful getting rid of dinos using just a uv.

Yes, I should have been more clear. I had Ostreopsis, at least that's what it looked like in the microscope. Dino's have been increasing in our oceans for decades and new species are being discovered.