Advice about moving from Qt to DT

[Pbh-reef]

So as some of you who frequent the disease forum know, I have a possum wrasse in QT. The wrasse had flukes (FW dip confirmed) and internal parasites (I saw stringy white poop on December 13th, 5 days after I brought him home). The wrasse has been through 30 days of copper and then 2 rounds of GC. He ate food bound with focus and GC for a few days at the start, but has refused all frozen and dry food since then (frozen hikari brine and mysis shrimp, frozen blood worms, reef nutrition arctic pods and roe, I also tried pellets but no luck). He nibbled at a pea a few days ago(!?)

This brings me to my question - for awhile the wrasse refused all food besides live black worms. Now he refuses them most of the time and will only eat live pods. I’m wondering if moving him to the DT (where he will be the only fish for awhile) might help him start to accept frozen food again.

My concerns are -
1. He could still have flukes if they are resistant to Prazipro. I’m afraid to do a FW dip because he took days to recover from the dip and seemed really close to death.

2. He may still have internal parasites. I haven’t seen him poop since December 13th!!!! My hope is that if he eats frozen I can start treating with GC or Prazipro soaked food in the DT.

What do folks advise me to do? Is there a disease he could have that I’m missing? The wrasse behaves mostly fine, swims a lot and is super inquisitive and interactive. The only behaviors he does that are concerning (besides becoming a steadily pickier eater) are occasional spasms around the mouth/gills when I feed (this seems to happen a lot after I dosed GC the first time and has decreased in frequency since) and breathing at the water surface (which I know can be a sign of gill infestation).

So do folks advise moving to the DT in an effort to help the wrasse eat better or keeping it in qt and observing more or even treating with something?

This is my first time QTing my fish btw!

 

[Pbh-reef]

Oh and in case it helps there is still a tiny amount of copper in the qt, Hanna checker reads 0.08ppm. Don’t know if that’s enough to act as an appetite suppressant...

 

[Big G]

For flukes that are Prazi resistant one path is to use hyposalinity in the QT. It's usually very gentle on the fish. You just have to be very accurate in monitoring the salinity level. Here's Humblefish's treatment advisory:
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/hyposalinity.247596/#post-2907751

 

[Pbh-reef]

Hmmm doing hypo would be a bit of pain for me. I’d rather only do it if I know he has flukes. I guess I need to dip to see but he was literally on the tank bottom for 3 days looking nearly dead after a 5 min dip last month

Really not sure what to do

 

[Frtdrmrose7]

If he’s gulping air and spasms around the gills then I’d guess he could still have something. I think I don’t think I would add him to my DT at this time. I understand the sensitivity to dips so maybe try treating GC in the water column. Remember Prazi and Copper at any levels can affect appetite also, you may want to do a WC and give him a day or so. Lastly what do you have for aeration in the tank? Using copper and Prazi together would require aeration to ensure the tank isn’t depleted of O2.

 

[Pbh-reef]

I did do 2 rounds of gc in the water. I agree the spasms aren’t a good sign. I could do a round of Prazipro since the dosage is higher than what’s in GC.

Would 0.08ppm of copper really impact the O2 level by now? I run an aquaclear 50 on the 10 gallon, the surface agitation is ok but not great. I also have a power head and air stone in the tank that I run when it seems like it could help the tank (after a water change, when I first dose GC).

 

[Frtdrmrose7]

I did do 2 rounds of gc in the water. I agree the spasms aren’t a good sign. I could do a round of Prazipro since the dosage is higher than what’s in GC.

Would 0.08ppm of copper really impact the O2 level by now? I run an aquaclear 50 on the 10 gallon, the surface agitation is ok but not great. I also have a power head and air stone in the tank that I run when it seems like it could help the tank (after a water change, when I first dose GC).

Do a WC to remove the copper give him a day or two try to get him eating. If he’ll start eating I’d do the Prazi 5-7 days apart to ensure no flukes. Keep the water agitated and just remember Wrasses are sensitive it seems to everything.

 

[Pbh-reef]

Do a WC to remove the copper give him a day or two try to get him eating. If he’ll start eating I’d do the Prazi 5-7 days apart to ensure no flukes. Keep the water agitated and just remember Wrasses are sensitive it seems to everything.

Ok this does make sense. But before I do this I just want to seek out @Humblefish, @HotRocks or @4FordFamily advicr since as you say wrasses in general seem so sensitive and this little fish is definitely in line with that. I’m not sure if I should wait for the fish to eat frozen again before treating with Prazipro.

 

[Humblefish]

Fenbendazole appears to be a suitable treatment for prazi resistant flukes. I’m gonna let @GoldeneyeRet expand upon this because he has been doing some experimentation with fenbendazole.

 

[Frtdrmrose7]

Ok this does make sense. But before I do this I just want to seek out @Humblefish, @HotRocks or @4FordFamily advicr since as you say wrasses in general seem so sensitive and this little fish is definitely in line with that. I’m not sure if I should wait for the fish to eat frozen again before treating with Prazipro.

Yes, I would do my best to get him eating before dosing any other meds unless you suspect he isn’t eating because of flukes, internal parasites, etc.

 

[4FordFamily]

I acclimate wrasse in to thereapeutic copper without issue most of the time, but I don’t know that I can recommend that. I would not recommend waiting until they eat, we had little success doing this despite it seemed to make more sense. Whatever ailed them took over quickly when we didn’t immediately treat.

 

[Pbh-reef]

Thanks @Humblefish and @4FordFamily So just to recap - the wrasse has been through copper and GC in the water. It went from eating frozen brine to only black worms to now only live tigger pods. I suspect either it may have internal parasites (I’ve only seen it poop once- on 12/13 and it was white and stringy) and perhaps Prazipro resistant flukes since I’ve seen it twitch it’s gills and mouth and breath at the surface since GC treatments. I’m afraid to do a FW dip because last time it responded so badly to one, taking days to recover. Would You two suggest I now try fenbendazole? I’d love to get it eating frozen again so I can get GC bound food into its stomach. Thanks very much again.

 

[GoldeneyeRet]

It does sound like prazi resistant flukes are a possibility. I have seen them often lately on my own fish orders.

As humblefish mentioned I have been using fenbendazole to treat prazi resistant flukes with success. It appears very effective and easier on fish than prazi. Please note I've only used it on a few fish, so results may vary.

Treatment was easy. 12 hour bath with fendendazole dosed at 95 mg/gal. After the bath I transferred the fish to a sterile tank. I did not perform a follow up dip, and after three weeks these fish are still free of flukes so it APPEARS fenbendazole MAY be effective against eggs as well as adults.

I have also been using fenbendazole with some success orally to treat intestinal parasites. I mixed it with focus and fed daily. I have done this in qt and in my reef. Treatment appears successful and I've noticed no issues in my reef.

Thanks to humblefish for guiding me through this experimental treatment.

 

[Pbh-reef]

It does sound like prazi resistant flukes are a possibility. I have seen them often lately on my own fish orders.

As humblefish mentioned I have been using fenbendazole to treat prazi resistant flukes with success. It appears very effective and easier on fish than prazi. Please note I've only used it on a few fish, so results may vary.

Treatment was easy. 12 hour bath with fendendazole dosed at 95 mg/gal. After the bath I transferred the fish to a sterile tank. I did not perform a follow up dip, and after three weeks these fish are still free of flukes so it APPEARS fenbendazole MAY be effective against eggs as well as adults.

I have also been using fenbendazole with some success orally to treat intestinal parasites. I mixed it with focus and fed daily. I have done this in qt and in my reef. Treatment appears successful and I've noticed no issues in my reef.

Thanks to humblefish for guiding me through this experimental treatment.

Thank you very very much - do you suggest any brand in particular or does it not much matter?

 

[Pbh-reef]

And one other question- is it necessary to move the fish to a sterile tank after? That would be hard for me space wise so if I could keep them in the same tank to observe I’d love to.

 

[GoldeneyeRet]

I obtained fenbendazole from Thomas labs.

I dont know if the move to a sterile tank is necessary. I did it to be safe.

 

[Pbh-reef]

I obtained fenbendazole from Thomas labs.

I dont know if the move to a sterile tank is necessary. I did it to be safe.

Ok thank you! @Humblefish do you have any thoughts on moving the fish to a sterile tank post fendendazole - is it ok to keep the fish in the same tank with a water change and adding carbon?

 

[Pbh-reef]

Hi @Humblefish i searched older posts where you suggest using fenbendazole for flukes and see you suggesting transferring to a sterile tank. Could I get around this by dosing the same qt twice 5-7 days apart (as I would do with GC)?

Edit - just realized you suggest a 12 hour bath so I guess to recreate this I’d have to do a 100% water change in the quarantine tank?

 

[Humblefish]

Hi @Humblefish i searched older posts where you suggest using fenbendazole for flukes and see you suggesting transferring to a sterile tank. Could I get around this by dosing the same qt twice 5-7 days apart (as I would do with GC)?

Edit - just realized you suggest a 12 hour bath so I guess to recreate this I’d have to do a 100% water change in the quarantine tank?

Noga recommends treating with fenbendazole @ 25mg/L (95mg/gal) in a 12 hour bath in order to eradicate monogeneans (flukes). The fish should be transferred to a clean/sterile QT post bath in order to prevent reinfection. He doesn't say in his book if a second bath (5-7 days later) is necessary like it is with prazi, but for now I would do it for good measure. Again, transfer the fish into a clean/sterile QT following the 12 hr bath treatment.

 

[Pbh-reef]

Noga recommends treating with fenbendazole @ 25mg/L (95mg/gal) in a 12 hour bath in order to eradicate monogeneans (flukes). The fish should be transferred to a clean/sterile QT post bath in order to prevent reinfection. He doesn't say in his book if a second bath (5-7 days later) is necessary like it is with prazi, but for now I would do it for good measure. Again, transfer the fish into a clean/sterile QT following the 12 hr bath treatment.

Ok thanks very much, I’ll figure out what I can do!