Advice Needed! Phosguard Versus Algae Scrubber

[Apollo7235]

Hi there all,

I hope you’re well!

I am looking for some experience-based advice.

I have a +/-53 gallon system (38-gallon display, 20-gallon sump) with an oversized Aquamaxx protein skimmer and plenty of live rock. System has been running for almost 2 years with a brief interruption due to a move just under a year ago. I use TM Pro Reef salt and RODI water from my AquaticLife RODI system and perform 40-45% water changes every other week. The only thing I dose is the calcium carbonate mix posted by another reefer about once a week. I feed a mix of frozen food just about every evening and I rinse it well in RODI before I serve it. I also have an auto feeder that runs once a day at noon with a mix of high quality mysis flake and pellets.

I currently have two orange storm clowns, two canary wrasses, one neon goby, and a Randall’s prawn goby. Inverts, bullseye pistol shrimp, a few Pom Pom crabs, one CA red devil BTA, one fighting conch, and an assortment of snail cleanup crew. Corals are all LPS, NPS, and softies: dendro, fathead dendro, Sun corals, acans, branching hammer, duncan and pulsing Xenia. All of my coral are doing very well, growing and multiplying. I also have an abundance of pink, purple and red coralline, and 2 clams that came on my live rock that have been thriving for about a year.

The thing is, I have a big phosphate problem. Phosphate is at .25ppm and nitrate is at 4.2ppm.

I am worried about my BTA. It lost its bubbles even though I have cut my phosphate in half (I know, crazy it was that high), and although it has grown quite a bit since I bought it a few months ago, the bubbles have yet to come back and it’s tentacles curl and kink every few days.

I am currently considering two options:

Santa Monica Rain 2 algae scrubber

or

Phosguard

I have heard positives and negatives about both. On the one hand, I love the natural approach with the algae scrubber, but I am worried it will bottom out my nitrates. On the other hand, I feel the Phosguard will solve my problem, but I am worried about bottoming out my phosphates and I feel like it may be a short-term solution when I need something sustainable.

Any thought or suggestions?

 

[KrisReef]

Bubble tip's are nortorios for "losing their bubbles." I have never heard that the loss was positively linked to high phosphates in any scientific study or by casual observations made by reef keepers. I have heard many people complain that their bubble tips got lost.

If your tank is otherwise thriving I wouldn't rush to fix the high levels of measured phosphate in your tanks. I would also think that if you must deal with the high phosphates then I would use the phosgard product to address high phosphorus. As you noted, the nitrates will be impacted by the algae scrubber, and the nitrates will bottom out with the algae scrubber before the phosphate is dealt with unless you dose nitrates along the way.

Go slow.

Interestingly, doing an extra water change could have a better positive impact towards reaching your number goals than either phosguard of algae scrubber, without bottoming out your numbers.

 

[Rp8]

I have used phosgaurd and it never did the trick and was exhausted pretty fast. I switched to GFO and now my PO4 stays around .02 for 2 months before it starts rising.
And I’d go with algae scrubber.

 

[Dan_P]

Bubble tip's are nortorios for "losing their bubbles." I have never heard that the loss was positively linked to high phosphates in any scientific study or by casual observations made by reef keepers. I have heard many people complain that their bubble tips got lost.

If your tank is otherwise thriving I wouldn't rush to fix the high levels of measured phosphate in your tanks. I would also think that if you must deal with the high phosphates then I would use the phosgard product to address high phosphorus. As you noted, the nitrates will be impacted by the algae scrubber, and the nitrates will bottom out with the algae scrubber before the phosphate is dealt with unless you dose nitrates along the way.

Go slow.

Interestingly, doing an extra water change could have a better positive impact towards reaching your number goals than either phosguard of algae scrubber, without bottoming out your numbers.

Agree ^^^

 

[Apollo7235]

Thank you everyone. I will try the extra water change and go from there.

Experience has shown me that chasing numbers usually leads to failure, so I’m going to stick to doing what it looks like my tank likes best.

I appreciate the advice! Hoping to see some bubbles come back into my bubble-less BTA!

 

[Turbo's Aquatics Verified Sponsor]

Phosphate removal media often works quickly then tapers off. The problem is that "shock" to the phosphate numbers often causes more problems, because stability is really the key. I think it's Richard Ross' tank that has 1.0 or higher phosphate and his corals look fantastic. Personally I feel the "phosphate is bad" industry was created by the media manufacturers, particularly when GFO became widely available.

In that respect, and algae scrubber will generally reduce phosphate well, sometimes too well, but most of the time it's nitrate that a scrubber will bottom out first, and then you're left with 0 nitrate and some phosphate. That's when (sometimes) using a very small amount of phosphate remover is helpful to keep that number in check, but it can be much less. In fact you only really want to use small amounts and add to it or change it more frequently, unless you're already at 0.0 and for some reason you do not want that number to creep up at all.

Just my 2c, there are varying opinions on phosphate. One is that very low phos (in combination with other levels) can promote faster coral growth, so some grow-out tanks (stony corals), you might want that. Higher phos doesn't necessarily kill corals, but w/r to growth of stony corals, it will result in slower growth (which coincidentally means stronger structure to the coral skeleton actually). That's my understanding at least....

 

[Josh@ClearWaterScrubbers]

Hi there all,

I hope you’re well!

I am looking for some experience-based advice.

I have a +/-53 gallon system (38-gallon display, 20-gallon sump) with an oversized Aquamaxx protein skimmer and plenty of live rock. System has been running for almost 2 years with a brief interruption due to a move just under a year ago. I use TM Pro Reef salt and RODI water from my AquaticLife RODI system and perform 40-45% water changes every other week. The only thing I dose is the calcium carbonate mix posted by another reefer about once a week. I feed a mix of frozen food just about every evening and I rinse it well in RODI before I serve it. I also have an auto feeder that runs once a day at noon with a mix of high quality mysis flake and pellets.

I currently have two orange storm clowns, two canary wrasses, one neon goby, and a Randall’s prawn goby. Inverts, bullseye pistol shrimp, a few Pom Pom crabs, one CA red devil BTA, one fighting conch, and an assortment of snail cleanup crew. Corals are all LPS, NPS, and softies: dendro, fathead dendro, Sun corals, acans, branching hammer, duncan and pulsing Xenia. All of my coral are doing very well, growing and multiplying. I also have an abundance of pink, purple and red coralline, and 2 clams that came on my live rock that have been thriving for about a year.

The thing is, I have a big phosphate problem. Phosphate is at .25ppm and nitrate is at 4.2ppm.

I am worried about my BTA. It lost its bubbles even though I have cut my phosphate in half (I know, crazy it was that high), and although it has grown quite a bit since I bought it a few months ago, the bubbles have yet to come back and it’s tentacles curl and kink every few days.

I am currently considering two options:

Santa Monica Rain 2 algae scrubber

or

Phosguard

I have heard positives and negatives about both. On the one hand, I love the natural approach with the algae scrubber, but I am worried it will bottom out my nitrates. On the other hand, I feel the Phosguard will solve my problem, but I am worried about bottoming out my phosphates and I feel like it may be a short-term solution when I need something sustainable.

Any thought or suggestions?

Increasing your nitrates will allow the scrubber to do it job correctly and consume the phosphate. Your levels are out of the redfield ratio and that’s more than likely why you’re seeing a higher PO4 number. Simply dosing them up to around 20ppm should help the scrubber then remove the phosphates.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Increasing your nitrates will allow the scrubber to do it job correctly and consume the phosphate. Your levels are out of the redfield ratio and that’s more than likely why you’re seeing a higher PO4 number. Simply dosing them up to around 20ppm should help the scrubber then remove the phosphates.

I don't entirely agree. I think that is a misuse of the Redfield ratio.

"The thing is, I have a big phosphate problem. Phosphate is at .25ppm and nitrate is at 4.2ppm."

The only way that increasing nitrate will boost consumption of phosphate is IF N availability is the imiting factor for growth of algae (or something else).

Is 4 ppm limiting? I doubt it, but it might be. Nevertheless, it is either limiting or not, regardless of the Redfield ratio in the water as long as phosphate itself is not limiting (which it likely is not at 0.25 ppm).

To make it more clear, as long as there is "enough" nitrate so that nitrate is not limiting, the nitrate values doesn't matter for phosphate consumption if phosphate is 0.03 ppm, 0.25 ppm or 10 ppm.

 

[Dan_P]

Increasing your nitrates will allow the scrubber to do it job correctly and consume the phosphate. Your levels are out of the redfield ratio and that’s more than likely why you’re seeing a higher PO4 number. Simply dosing them up to around 20ppm should help the scrubber then remove the phosphates.

Sure, but using GFO solves the problem overnight, right?

 

[Josh@ClearWaterScrubbers]

I don't entirely agree. I think that is a misuse of the Redfield ratio.

"The thing is, I have a big phosphate problem. Phosphate is at .25ppm and nitrate is at 4.2ppm."

The only way that increasing nitrate will boost consumption of phosphate is IF N availability is the imiting factor for growth of algae (or something else).

Is 4 ppm limiting? I doubt it, but it might be. Nevertheless, it is either limiting or not, regardless of the Redfield ratio in the water as long as phosphate itself is not limiting (which it likely is not at 0.25 ppm).

To make it more clear, as long as there is "enough" nitrate so that nitrate is not limiting, the nitrate values doesn't matter for phosphate consumption if phosphate is 0.03 ppm, 0.25 ppm or 10 ppm.

Randy as someone who has never run a scrubber please leave your advice out of this. We deal with this on a daily basis and have advised thousands how to turn around their nutrient uptake. The redfield ratio along with having the correct amount of trace elements factors into growth and uptake more than your books can teach you!

 

[Josh@ClearWaterScrubbers]

Sure, but using GFO solves the problem overnight, right?

It can but it can also lead to other issues. What we have seen is that corals don’t usually like the immediate drop caused from gfo. However quick drops with natural filtration has not affected them in such a manner.

 

[HB AL]

I keep it simple and use phosgaurd and nopox in my tank.

 

[killer2001]

The thing is, I have a big phosphate problem. Phosphate is at .25ppm and nitrate is at 4.2ppm.

When your lights go off. Take a PO4 reading. Then dose 6mL of NOPOX, run your skimmer. Take the PO4 reading at exact same time 24 hours later. Do nothing else. Post results.

 

[BroccoliFarmer]

Randy as someone who has never run a scrubber please leave your advice out of this. We deal with this on a daily basis and have advised thousands how to turn around their nutrient uptake. The redfield ratio along with having the correct amount of trace elements factors into growth and uptake more than your books can teach you!

Wow. Just wow. Pretty disrespectful and to the point I will ensure that if I ever buy a scrubber it will not be clear water scrubbers.

Advising thousands of people of how to fix a problem when you are trying to sell them a product tells you all you need to know.

 

[Garf]

I certainly don’t think 4ppm Nitrate and 0.25ppm Phosphate is high. I ran a scrubber for 2 years, don’t now. Small tanks and waterchanges is simple.

 

[Dan_P]

It can but it can also lead to other issues. What we have seen is that corals don’t usually like the immediate drop caused from gfo. However quick drops with natural filtration has not affected them in such a manner.

The quick drop of PO4 is result of misusing GFO. It is very, very simple and easy to slowly step down PO4 with GFO. This chemical methodology is less complex and more energy efficient than an algae scrubber.

 

[ninjamyst]

I used phosguard in the past and it works fast. I agree with others to start with small amount and test regularly.

As for bubble tip bubbles, there is no consensus why they loose their bubbles. I had 5 bubble tips in a 13g nano tank with perfect bubbles. As soon as I move them to my 200g display tank, they loose their bubbles. My theory is bigger tank usually have more flow and they tend to loose their bubbles with more flow.

 

[Dan_P]

Randy as someone who has never run a scrubber please leave your advice out of this. We deal with this on a daily basis and have advised thousands how to turn around their nutrient uptake. The redfield ratio along with having the correct amount of trace elements factors into growth and uptake more than your books can teach you!

For one thing we have peer reviewed information from Randy versus anecdotal information from a vendor. Not sure this puts you in a strong position to invalidate Randy’s advice.

Just because you use the Redfield ratio to formulate advice for your customers is not a very strong case that the Redfield ratio is relevant to adjusting an algae scrubber.

And finally, I have to wonder that you need to advise so many customers on a daily basis. This does not speak highly of the methodology you are selling. Maybe what Randy is saying or further civil discussion could result in an improved operation of your product.

 

[Garf]

There are so many unanswered questions with regard to scrubbers.

Maybe what Randy is saying or further civil discussion could result in an improved operation of your product.

You mean something like this rabbit hole;

Too much phosphate ?

This experiment seems to indicate reduced algae growth at increased phos levels; http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3434001/ wouldnt this indicate that once a tipping point has been reached, you'll never get enough growth to reduce it ? Don't mind if I'm wrong on this by the way, but...

algaescrubber.net

 

[Dburr1014]

I used phosguard in the past and it works fast. I agree with others to start with small amount and test regularly.

As for bubble tip bubbles, there is no consensus why they loose their bubbles. I had 5 bubble tips in a 13g nano tank with perfect bubbles. As soon as I move them to my 200g display tank, they loose their bubbles. My theory is bigger tank usually have more flow and they tend to loose their bubbles with more flow.

I find the opposite, more flow(to a point), more bubbles.
Everyone is different, nobody knows why some loose them and some don't.