Advice on cyano, please

saltcats · Jun 15, 2023

Been having a cyano outbreak in my tank for about a month now. The tank is an AIO 14 gallon (actual volume more like 8, I think) set up late 2020, although for most of that time it had just 3 hermit crabs and 2 small corals (zoa and ricordea). October 2022 I started stocking it in earnest, and finally added my first (and only) fish in March of this year.

I had a brief issue with dinos in early May, and since then have been dealing with the cyano. Hoping for some advise of how to approach it, or if my current strategy is good and I just need to stick at it!

I have been turkey-basting the rocks once or twice daily for the last week (already noticing less crud coming off them when I do it, although the cyano is growing back just as fast), waiting for the water to clear up again, and then removing the top pad of my filter floss. I'm also doing a once weekly 1.5 - 2 gallon water change and aiming to vacuum out as much crud/cyano as I can when I do; may add in additional 0.5 gallon water changes in between bigger ones if that'd be beneficial.

Parameters from today (last water change 1.5 gallons 6/13):
Nitrate - undetectable (API)
Phosphate - undetectable (Salifert)
KH 7-8 (API)
Calc 370 - 380ppm (Salifert)
Salinity 1.025
Temp 78 - 79

The only time I've ever had detectable nitrates/phosphates in this system was during the 2 weeks of the dinos outbreak when I was actively dosing with NeoNitro and NeoPhos. Fish is fed twice daily with frozen food (only thing he'll eat).
Stock is:
2 x Nass snails
5? x Cerith snails
2x blue leg hermit
1 x possum wrasse
2 x RFA

Most of the corals don't really seem bothered by the cyano except my zoas, which are hanging in there but definitely not opening as much as they used to, and keep getting cyano growing over the polyps. I make sure to turkey-baste them as well to blow it off which helps a bit but it grows back within the day.

Thanks to anyone reading, any suggestions welcome! One additional note - I am upgrading to a 50 gallon soon, and was intending to get the cyano dealt with before the transfer. Or would transferring (and as a result thoroughly cleaning the sandbed) be beneficial?

FTS 3/11/23:

FTS today (6/15/23):

Lavey29 · Jun 15, 2023

O nitrates and 0 phosphates means your corals are starving to death slowly.

You probably dosed something to try and get rid of dinos which now has resulted in cyano?

Weekly 20% water changes. Get nitrates to 10 and phosphate to .05 to .1. Cut lights to 6 hours blue and uv only no whites. Siphon out what you can. Dose good heterotrophic bacteria like PNS probio once a week

saltcats · Jun 15, 2023

Lavey29 said:
O nitrates and 0 phosphates means your corals are starving to death slowly.

You probably dosed something to try and get rid of dinos which now has resulted in cyano?

Weekly 20% water changes. Get nitrates to 10 and phosphate to .05 to .1. Cut lights to 6 hours blue and uv only no whites. Siphon out what you can. Dose good heterotrophic bacteria like PNS probio once a week

I haven't lost any corals, including the original frags which have been in the tank almost 3 years now. It's true I didn't have very much growth in this time but I'd have expected survival issues if they were going to starve? I also have had a decent amount of growth since October (duncan growing 2 new heads, favia fully encrusted over plug and spreading, zoas all multiplying, etc).

The only thing I dosed for dinos was the NeoNitro and NeoPhos, and increased from feeding once daily to twice daily. I'm not entirely opposed to resuming dosing, but I think it led directly to the cyano problem, so I'm a little wary of it. I was under the impression that 'undetectable' doesn't necessarily actually mean 0, could just be nutrient uptake?

I was considering whether to run the lights more blue to help.

Thanks!

Lavey29 · Jun 15, 2023

saltcats said:
I haven't lost any corals, including the original frags which have been in the tank almost 3 years now. It's true I didn't have very much growth in this time but I'd have expected survival issues if they were going to starve? I also have had a decent amount of growth since October (duncan growing 2 new heads, favia fully encrusted over plug and spreading, zoas all multiplying, etc).

The only thing I dosed for dinos was the NeoNitro and NeoPhos, and increased from feeding once daily to twice daily. I'm not entirely opposed to resuming dosing, but I think it led directly to the cyano problem, so I'm a little wary of it. I was under the impression that 'undetectable' doesn't necessarily actually mean 0, could just be nutrient uptake?

I was considering whether to run the lights more blue to help.

Thanks!

I guess it might depend on the quality of your test kits but bottomed out nutrients levels is one of the key components for dinos and cyano. Light and flow play a role also. Try to increase flow to the areas where you have cyano on the sand too.

Uncle99 · Jun 15, 2023

Pest stuff loves zero/zero.

saltcats · Jun 15, 2023

Lavey29 said:
I guess it might depend on the quality of your test kits but bottomed out nutrients levels is one of the key components for dinos and cyano. Light and flow play a role also. Try to increase flow to the areas where you have cyano on the sand too.

Uncle99 said:
Pest stuff loves zero/zero.

Thanks! I'll try bringing the nutrients back up then and see how that goes.

I did also increase my flow a bit after the outbreak started (turned up the return pump one notch). I don't think I noticed any difference as a result but it seems to keep detritus suspended!

I have some turf algae growing as well which I had before the dinos/cyano but never was a problem (only small patches) - should I be pulling that as well or leave it be to let it compete with the cyano for now?

brandon429 · Jun 15, 2023

The sand is fully eutrophic

nothing you can add will fix it long term because the system needs export, not import, and rock basting adds waste to the sand vs removes it

this thread has seven tanks fixed, other peoples tanks, fixed with export

Algae Identification

Any opinions on what type of algae this is growing on my rocks and sand bed?

www.reef2reef.com

if you want your issue fixed long term, that’s the way

adding any meds, any doser, an addition vs a subtraction, doesn’t fix it, it will turn cyano into gha and dinos. If you truly want that tank fixed the roadmap is right there, very detailed, we have tanks like yours already fixed

Northern Flicker · Jun 15, 2023

@vetteguy53081 we need all hands on deck brother

FrugalReefer · Jun 15, 2023

IME I break out in cyano when I have a nutrient imbalance (high phosphates and low nitrates).

vetteguy53081 · Jun 15, 2023

FrugalReefer said:
IME I break out in cyano when I have a nutrient imbalance (high phosphates and low nitrates).

Agree.

vetteguy53081 · Jun 15, 2023

brandon429 said:
The sand is fully eutrophic

nothing you can add will fix it long term because the system needs export, not import, and rock basting adds waste to the sand vs removes it

this thread has seven tanks fixed, other peoples tanks, fixed with export

Algae Identification

Any opinions on what type of algae this is growing on my rocks and sand bed?

www.reef2reef.com

if you want your issue fixed long term, that’s the way

adding any meds, any doser, an addition vs a subtraction, doesn’t fix it, it will turn cyano into gha and dinos. If you truly want that tank fixed the roadmap is right there, very detailed, we have tanks like yours already fixed

Agree here

vetteguy53081 · Jun 15, 2023

saltcats said:
Been having a cyano outbreak in my tank for about a month now. The tank is an AIO 14 gallon (actual volume more like 8, I think) set up late 2020, although for most of that time it had just 3 hermit crabs and 2 small corals (zoa and ricordea). October 2022 I started stocking it in earnest, and finally added my first (and only) fish in March of this year.

I had a brief issue with dinos in early May, and since then have been dealing with the cyano. Hoping for some advise of how to approach it, or if my current strategy is good and I just need to stick at it!

I have been turkey-basting the rocks once or twice daily for the last week (already noticing less crud coming off them when I do it, although the cyano is growing back just as fast), waiting for the water to clear up again, and then removing the top pad of my filter floss. I'm also doing a once weekly 1.5 - 2 gallon water change and aiming to vacuum out as much crud/cyano as I can when I do; may add in additional 0.5 gallon water changes in between bigger ones if that'd be beneficial.

Parameters from today (last water change 1.5 gallons 6/13):
Nitrate - undetectable (API)
Phosphate - undetectable (Salifert)
KH 7-8 (API)
Calc 370 - 380ppm (Salifert)
Salinity 1.025
Temp 78 - 79

The only time I've ever had detectable nitrates/phosphates in this system was during the 2 weeks of the dinos outbreak when I was actively dosing with NeoNitro and NeoPhos. Fish is fed twice daily with frozen food (only thing he'll eat).
Stock is:
2 x Nass snails
5? x Cerith snails
2x blue leg hermit
1 x possum wrasse
2 x RFA

Most of the corals don't really seem bothered by the cyano except my zoas, which are hanging in there but definitely not opening as much as they used to, and keep getting cyano growing over the polyps. I make sure to turkey-baste them as well to blow it off which helps a bit but it grows back within the day.

Thanks to anyone reading, any suggestions welcome! One additional note - I am upgrading to a 50 gallon soon, and was intending to get the cyano dealt with before the transfer. Or would transferring (and as a result thoroughly cleaning the sandbed) be beneficial?

FTS 3/11/23:

FTS today (6/15/23):

Here is where I have to say and admit- Best recourse will be a Rip Clean often suggested by @brandon429
I can give steps but ultimately a rip clean pays off here

vetteguy53081 · Jun 15, 2023

It is often a core belief that bottomed out nutrients causes dino. In reality, by the time you see zero numbers, its because the dino has consumed the po4 and no3 and are multiplying and in turn many dose no3 and po4 to bring numbers up not realizing they are feeding these flagellates even more.
Its biological deficiencies that are causing the dino structure

saltcats · Jun 15, 2023

vetteguy53081 said:
It is often a core belief that bottomed out nutrients causes dino. In reality, by the time you see zero numbers, its because the dino has consumed the po4 and no3 and are multiplying and in turn many dose no3 and po4 to bring numbers up not realizing they are feeding these flagellates even more.
Its biological deficiencies that are causing the dino structure

Makes sense - my nutrients had always been undetectable for the entire duration of the tank and never a problem until this outbreak. I'm pretty sure I know what set it off exactly - did an extra water change to try to make sure conditions were extra good for the new fishy inhabitant + scraped off all the turf algae that had been growing on the back glass for a few months at that point... Pretty much the next day there was brown stuff starting on the sand but I didn't recognise it for what it was at first.

So it sounds like maybe I should just plan to set up my new tank sooner than later and do a 'rip clean' as a tank transfer process? It may be a couple of months before I am able to start that going... What's my best course of action in the meantime? Rather not have to catch out the fish and move him twice if I can help it.

EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal · Jun 15, 2023

saltcats said:
Been having a cyano outbreak in my tank for about a month now. The tank is an AIO 14 gallon (actual volume more like 8, I think) set up late 2020, although for most of that time it had just 3 hermit crabs and 2 small corals (zoa and ricordea). October 2022 I started stocking it in earnest, and finally added my first (and only) fish in March of this year.

I had a brief issue with dinos in early May, and since then have been dealing with the cyano. Hoping for some advise of how to approach it, or if my current strategy is good and I just need to stick at it!

I have been turkey-basting the rocks once or twice daily for the last week (already noticing less crud coming off them when I do it, although the cyano is growing back just as fast), waiting for the water to clear up again, and then removing the top pad of my filter floss. I'm also doing a once weekly 1.5 - 2 gallon water change and aiming to vacuum out as much crud/cyano as I can when I do; may add in additional 0.5 gallon water changes in between bigger ones if that'd be beneficial.

Parameters from today (last water change 1.5 gallons 6/13):
Nitrate - undetectable (API)
Phosphate - undetectable (Salifert)
KH 7-8 (API)
Calc 370 - 380ppm (Salifert)
Salinity 1.025
Temp 78 - 79

The only time I've ever had detectable nitrates/phosphates in this system was during the 2 weeks of the dinos outbreak when I was actively dosing with NeoNitro and NeoPhos. Fish is fed twice daily with frozen food (only thing he'll eat).
Stock is:
2 x Nass snails
5? x Cerith snails
2x blue leg hermit
1 x possum wrasse
2 x RFA

Most of the corals don't really seem bothered by the cyano except my zoas, which are hanging in there but definitely not opening as much as they used to, and keep getting cyano growing over the polyps. I make sure to turkey-baste them as well to blow it off which helps a bit but it grows back within the day.

Thanks to anyone reading, any suggestions welcome! One additional note - I am upgrading to a 50 gallon soon, and was intending to get the cyano dealt with before the transfer. Or would transferring (and as a result thoroughly cleaning the sandbed) be beneficial?

FTS 3/11/23:

FTS today (6/15/23):

Add silicates to promote a diatom bloom. The diatoms will compete with the cyano and are easier to get rid of.

vetteguy53081 · Jun 15, 2023

saltcats said:
Makes sense - my nutrients had always been undetectable for the entire duration of the tank and never a problem until this outbreak. I'm pretty sure I know what set it off exactly - did an extra water change to try to make sure conditions were extra good for the new fishy inhabitant + scraped off all the turf algae that had been growing on the back glass for a few months at that point... Pretty much the next day there was brown stuff starting on the sand but I didn't recognise it for what it was at first.

So it sounds like maybe I should just plan to set up my new tank sooner than later and do a 'rip clean' as a tank transfer process? It may be a couple of months before I am able to start that going... What's my best course of action in the meantime? Rather not have to catch out the fish and move him twice if I can help it.

You nailed it and I hate the thought of resetting to go through possible stages of diatoms, etc but sometimes, its worth it

Uncle99 · Jun 17, 2023

saltcats said:
Thanks! I'll try bringing the nutrients back up then and see how that goes.

I did also increase my flow a bit after the outbreak started (turned up the return pump one notch). I don't think I noticed any difference as a result but it seems to keep detritus suspended!

I have some turf algae growing as well which I had before the dinos/cyano but never was a problem (only small patches) - should I be pulling that as well or leave it be to let it compete with the cyano for now?

It the things we can’t see that will keep her clean.
But populations gotta get up and the best cleaners are the slowest to develop.

It’s impossible to tell population levels cause we see nothing, (maybe some pods), but they are there, they love stable environments.

They develop better when water chemistry is unchanging, day to day and everything needs nitrogen and phosphate to live and replicate and your showing “undetectable”.

The only tester for phosphate that worked real well at low, low levels was the Hanna, UL Phosphorus in PPB.

Polish up those rocks with a toothbrush weekly, take out what you can, don’t change water unless nitrate’s constantly rising and just wait…….somewhere in your systems future, you’ll notice a big difference.

Some snails work great, just keep redirecting them to affected areas when they stray.