AF Component 123 - precipitation

[Bonsai reef]

Hello @Aquaforest ,

I am having issue with precipitation after starting with AF Component 1+,2+,3+ (5000ml liquid cans). Below is the background-

Tank details-

24g AIO mixed reef 2 months old
2 fishes (neon goby and royal gramma)
27 frags (50% SPS + 50% LPS)
Crushed coral substrate + tonga dry rock
Marine pure bio media + ceramic rings in back chamber
Macro algae fuge in back chamber
Salt - Red Sea Blue bucket

Water params before starting AF Component -
Salinity - 35 (1.026)
pH-7.9 - 8
Temp-77-78 F
Alk-7.7 dKh
Ca-430
Mg-1350

Was dosing ESV B-ionic 2 part + Mg (2ml each) consistent for 2-3 weeks

2/6 - Started AF Component dosing via dosing pump (calibrated) 10ml each (2ml x 5 times) with 1 hour gap between each dose.

2/7- Params-
Salinity - 35 (1.026)
pH-7.9 - 8
Temp-77-78 F
Alk-8.3 (+0.6 dKh)
* took the dosing pump offline to bring down to 7.7

2/8-
Salinity - 35 (1.026)
Temp-77-78 F
pH-7.9 - 8
Alk-7.7 dKh
* dosing pump back online with 4ml each (2ml x 2) separated by 3-4 hours between doses

2/9-
Salinity - 35 (1.026)
Temp-77-78 F
pH-7.9 - 8
Alk-7.7 dKh
Ca-400 (- 30 drop) * added 2ml Ca separately from ESV b-ionic to bring it up
Mg- 1280 (-70 drop) * added 2x2ml=4ml Mg separately from Fritz to bring it up

And I noticed cloudy water with of white precipitation on my wave maker and glass.

2/10-
Salinity - 35 (1.026)
pH-7.9 - 8
Temp-77-78 F
Alk-7.7 dKh
Ca-420 (+ 20 )

Cloudy water with of white precipitation still persisting. Please let me know if this is something common with Comp 123 or what could be the reason.

 

[Bonsai reef]

The water remained cloudy. none of the corals seems to be impacted except the red goni which is not happy and closed since today morning (was less open y'day). So I had to take the dosing pump offline and will have to go back to regular 2 part dosing (Randy's recipe-1) and 10% WC. I had great expectation from @Aquaforest but this is what it is at the moment and I am stopping on component 123.

 

[plexx]

Check out BRS video on their balling method. Very inexpensive and has worked great for me. Also tank is very stable. One other thing, instead of turning your doser off, dial it back some to get levels were you want them. You don't want to bounce them up and down like that, remember anything you do in a reef tank has to be done slowly so the corals can adjust or you will have problems.

 

[Bonsai reef]

Check out BRS video on their balling method. Very inexpensive and has worked great for me. Also tank is very stable. One other thing, instead of turning your doser off, dial it back some to get levels were you want them. You don't want to bounce them up and down like that, remember anything you do in a reef tank has to be done slowly so the corals can adjust or you will have problems.

Ya I have seen that BRS video before but still wanted to give AF a try solely because of the good result people have using AF.

and no worries i am keeping the params in check using my leftover b-ionic 2part manually right now.

 

[plexx]

Cool, if you look into the two systems they are very similar just the brs one in much cheaper.

 

[Deep]

The water remained cloudy. none of the corals seems to be impacted except the red goni which is not happy and closed since today morning (was less open y'day). So I had to take the dosing pump offline and will have to go back to regular 2 part dosing (Randy's recipe-1) and 10% WC. I had great expectation from @Aquaforest but this is what it is at the moment and I am stopping on component 123.

I have not had problems with preciptation with AF. Whats the time interval between dosing component 1 and 2 ?

 

[Bonsai reef]

I have not had problems with preciptation with AF. Whats the time interval between dosing component 1 and 2 ?

Initially 1 hr apart then with reduced dosing 4 hr apart. I was also not expecting to have precipitation with 4ml of dosing.
One thing is that my dosing lines are pulling the comp 123 from the 5 ltr cans that came with it (drilled holes on the lid as suggested in BRS website). Will it have any residue or higher concentration at the bottom as its not being stirred?

The precipitation was obvious cause the Ca dropped 30ppm in one day which usually never happened before.

 

[Deep]

Initially 1 hr apart then with reduced dosing 4 hr apart. I was also not expecting to have precipitation with 4ml of dosing.
One thing is that my dosing lines are pulling the comp 123 from the 5 ltr cans that came with it (drilled holes on the lid as suggested in BRS website). Will it have any residue or higher concentration at the bottom as its not being stirred?

The precipitation was obvious cause the Ca dropped 30ppm in one day which usually never happened before.

This is very strange. Can you change to manual dosing directly into the tank where there is good flow ?

 

[Bonsai reef]

This is very strange. Can you change to manual dosing directly into the tank where there is good flow ?

Yes, will try that and see how it goes.

 

[Anirban]

Hi,

Let us try to understand the issue in detail. You were trying to dose component 123 and seeing precipitation right.
First before you start adding the components you need to first reach to the desired levels you want by adding Alk, Ca and Mg separately. Then just start adding the all 3 components in exact same amount and take the readings atleast 12 hours later for Alk. The readings can be more or less based on the tank need so adjust your dosing accordingly. Now always dose them equally. After some initial shock and level changes the system will adjust itself and start keeping the level same across dosing. Always adjust dosing amount based on Alk consumption nothing else.
Now, if you have a sump then dose them in sump. Best way to dose them is through a doser but you need to be sure the doser calibration is perfect and you need to check that time to time. Manual dosing is fine but automated dosing through out the 24hrs is better.

It will be good if you can give them a daily shake so that nothing gets precipitated.

Please share a picture of the system and dosing setup.

 

[Big C]

Agree with Anirban. Get everything dialed in then dose based on consumption.

I've been running AF 123 (I use the dry version, dissolve and make my own). Had no issues with precipitation in the tank. Do have some issues with the buffer that needs the end of the dosing tube cleaned off once in awhile. I dose 15 minutes apart in the sump.

I like the product. Easy to use, great colors on LPS and SPS. I just recently swap out the KH Buffer with NaOH. Much cheaper, easier to find and gives me a tiny pH boost. So i just replace the dry KH Buffer with NaOH when I mix them up.

 

[Bonsai reef]

Hi,

Let us try to understand the issue in detail. You were trying to dose component 123 and seeing precipitation right.
First before you start adding the components you need to first reach to the desired levels you want by adding Alk, Ca and Mg separately. Then just start adding the all 3 components in exact same amount and take the readings atleast 12 hours later for Alk. The readings can be more or less based on the tank need so adjust your dosing accordingly. Now always dose them equally. After some initial shock and level changes the system will adjust itself and start keeping the level same across dosing. Always adjust dosing amount based on Alk consumption nothing else.
Now, if you have a sump then dose them in sump. Best way to dose them is through a doser but you need to be sure the doser calibration is perfect and you need to check that time to time. Manual dosing is fine but automated dosing through out the 24hrs is better.

It will be good if you can give them a daily shake so that nothing gets precipitated.

Please share a picture of the system and dosing setup.

Hi Anirban, thank you for your reply..

Below is the background (I will be as detailed as possible as I know there could be various factors behind the issue, you will find some over-information too and apologies for that)

In short, I have been in this hobby for 2 years. Had this tank (24g AIO nano cube) running mixed reef for 1 yr with good success and then had to take it down as I was out of the US for 8 months. Restarted Dec 2020 and got my corals back from a local reefer who housed them when I was away.


Current setup-

24g All in One mixed reef 7 weeks old (started cycling Dec 20th, 2020, Fritz turbo start + Dr Tims ammonium chloride took about 3 weeks). If you need more details I have a build thread.

Current stock-
2 fishes (neon goby and royal gramma) + 3 hermits + 1 trochus snail
27 frags (50% SPS + 50% LPS) -
crushed coral substrate + tonga dry rock (NSA)
Marine pure bio media + ceramic rings in back chamber
Macro algae (small red ogo) fuge in back chamber
Salt - Red Sea Blue bucket from starting

Feeding - PE flake food 1x/day, frozen mysis shrimp + pinch of reef roids - 2x/week
Polyp booster amino - 2 drops/day

Water params before starting AF Component as on 2/6 morning -
Salinity - 35 (1.026)
pH-7.9 - 8
Temp-77-78 F
Alk-7.7 dKh (salifert)
Ca-430 (salifert)
Mg-1350 (salifert)

NO3- 2-5 (salifert)
PO4- >0.03 (salifert)

So far I was dosing ESV B-ionic 2 part (2ml) + Fritz Mg (2ml) from my leftover stock and params were consistent for past 2-3 weeks as above.

Alk varied btwn 7.3-7.7 consumption was ~0.4 dKh/day and Ca - was hovering between 420-430ppm. Mg was low around 1280 and was dosed up to 1350 before starting Comp 123.

I was happy with ESV B-ionic with my previous setup but the colors were not exceptional. I heard a lot of good stuff about AF component123 and came across some wonderful AF run tanks too. Also, the added trace element bug got me and wanted to give AF comp123 a try. This time I pulled the trigger and ordered AF Comp 123 from BRS.

2/6 afternoon - Started AF Component dosing via Jebao DP-4 dosing pump (calibrated with 100 ml of each component 123 separately in each channel). dosing lines are blue RO water lines with one-way valve to hold the fluid from dropping back (Tested and holds the fluid intact). Dosing pump is in middle rack of tank stand (will get some pictures) and comp 2,3 is in the lower rack and 2 in middle rack.

Calculated dose for ~22g net water vol. and 0.3 dkh/day drop came to 10ml. Setup dosing each component (2ml x 5 times) with 1 hour gap between each dose. The dosing is done in the back middle chamber of the AIO (which is quite high flow area).

2/7 morning- tank was somewhat cloudy but didn't think it was due to dosing. So, added some GAC in a pouch and placed in the overflow thinking it may be organic.
Params-
Salinity - 35 (1.026)
pH-7.9 - 8
Temp-77-78 F
Alk-8.3 (+0.6 dKh)
* took the dosing pump offline to bring the Alk down to my comfort zone which is 7.7-8 max

2/8- dosing pump remained offline till evening
Salinity - 35 (1.026)
Temp-77-78 F
pH-7.9 - 8
Alk- 8 dKh (- 0.3)
* dosing pump back online at night with reduced dose of 4ml each (2ml x 2 *12hr apart) separated by 3-4 hours between comp 1, 2 and 3.

2/9- Tank was quite cloudy with white suspension in the water.
Salinity - 35 (1.026)
Temp-77-78 F
pH-7.9 - 8
Alk-7.7 dKh
Ca-400 (- 30 drop) * added 2ml Ca separately from ESV b-ionic to bring it up
Mg- 1280 (-70 drop) * added 2x2ml=4ml Mg separately from Fritz to bring it up

And I noticed more cloudy water with of white precipitation on my wave maker and glass.

2/10-
Salinity - 35 (1.026)
pH-7.9 - 8
Temp-77-78 F
Alk-7.7 dKh
Ca-420 (+ 20 )
Mg-1280

Cloudy water with of white precipitation still persisting. Now, with 4ml/day of Ca I don't think saturation will be reached from 430ppm.

All SPS (mainly digis and few acros seem to be fine and so are other LPS, except the red goni which is huge but now mostly closed). I have taken the dosing pump offline to see for couple of days and dosing b-ionic manually 2ml.

Please let me know if you need any other info. Thank you for bearing with such a long post.

 

[Bonsai reef]

Some blue heavy phone picture

not sure it captures the haze

 

[Bonsai reef]

Agree with Anirban. Get everything dialed in then dose based on consumption.

I've been running AF 123 (I use the dry version, dissolve and make my own). Had no issues with precipitation in the tank. Do have some issues with the buffer that needs the end of the dosing tube cleaned off once in awhile. I dose 15 minutes apart in the sump.

I like the product. Easy to use, great colors on LPS and SPS. I just recently swap out the KH Buffer with NaOH. Much cheaper, easier to find and gives me a tiny pH boost. So i just replace the dry KH Buffer with NaOH when I mix them up.

I used Randy's recipe 1 then b-ionic before and liked it. In this build I thought of going red sea program route but seems a lot of individual dosing with macro and trace elements. So, AF comp 123 seemed to be the best option and with good result. So changed my mind to use the liquid version of comp 123 for the sake of simplicity and my tank size not a big cost.

 

[Anirban]

There are few things worth mentioning.

With your current daily consumption you really don't need to dose anything. 0.4dkh can be a test kit variability so unless you have a large variation just watch how much you loose over few days without dosing anything.

The Af calculation is based on a full blown reef not small starting reefs. Since AF launched in US we have encountered this same issue by several reefers. Unless you have a full blown reef and loosing atleast 1 or more dkh each day don't dose anything. Once you have a steady high consumption then start the dosing. Till then just 10% water change should work. If you loose 1-2dkh over 2-3 days span then you can possibly dose a few ml to bring the level up. Always dose equal based on alk consumption.

Also don't try to adjust the individual level once you start dosing. They will move a bit but after some time they will settle. I know its very tempting to watch all those nice tanks on facebook or social media but trust me there are lot more failed tanks who tried to achieve the same thing and failed. I mainly keep acros and understand the importance of stability but still I don't think you don't need to dose anything. People will say otherwise that acro needs super stable parameters but the truth is that a healthy ecosystem can handle the amount of swing you are currently seeing pretty easily. When I broke down the last tank I was dosing 120 ml each component daily (the dry version which is much stronger than the commercial one). It took 2 years to see that kind of consumption.

Also, the jebao pump are pretty nasty and don't hold their calibration so be very careful. They are also not good for dosing small amounts.

 

[Bonsai reef]

There are few things worth mentioning.

With your current daily consumption you really don't need to dose anything. 0.4dkh can be a test kit variability so unless you have a large variation just watch how much you loose over few days without dosing anything.

The Af calculation is based on a full blown reef not small starting reefs. Since AF launched in US we have encountered this same issue by several reefers. Unless you have a full blown reef and loosing atleast 1 or more dkh each day don't dose anything. Once you have a steady high consumption then start the dosing. Till then just 10% water change should work. If you loose 1-2dkh over 2-3 days span then you can possibly dose a few ml to bring the level up. Always dose equal based on alk consumption.

Also don't try to adjust the individual level once you start dosing. They will move a bit but after some time they will settle. I know its very tempting to watch all those nice tanks on facebook or social media but trust me there are lot more failed tanks who tried to achieve the same thing and failed. I mainly keep acros and understand the importance of stability but still I don't think you don't need to dose anything. People will say otherwise that acro needs super stable parameters but the truth is that a healthy ecosystem can handle the amount of swing you are currently seeing pretty easily. When I broke down the last tank I was dosing 120 ml each component daily (the dry version which is much stronger than the commercial one). It took 2 years to see that kind of consumption.

Also, the jebao pump are pretty nasty and don't hold their calibration so be very careful. They are also not good for dosing small amounts.

Makes sense Anirban. I will hold on with dosing for now and do my 10% weekly wc and keep testing my prams to see where it goes. Thank you for the suggestions. May be in future will upgrade the dosing pump.

 

[Anirban]

Makes sense Anirban. I will hold on with dosing for now and do my 10% weekly wc and keep testing my prams to see where it goes. Thank you for the suggestions. May be in future will upgrade the dosing pump.

Sure save on dosing and money. Its a expensive hobby and you really dont need to dose now. You can trust on the jebao for large volume but not for very small and accurate ones.