AFCI Breakers?

[spsick]

Anyone here familiar with national electric code in practice? Buying a new house that has fuses And only 60a service so I’m upgrading to a breaker panel, however I’m reading that if I “modify or extend” any circuits code dictates I have to put AFCI breakers on those circuits. I’m told this are trip happy (and 10x the cost)

The modification of course would be replace old wires with new Romex to the tank outlets (And gfci of course). Pulling a permit for this and an electrician friend is doing the panel for me so I want it to be right. I would be running the new romex and replacing outlets. Obviously each inspector is different but curious what folks are seeing.

@Brew12 ?

 

[Captmcfly]

I'm an electrian , and generally it wholly depends on the inspector. Yes your suppose to have afci breakers in most places in your home now, gfci in kitchen, bathroom and so on. Afci breakers do have a history of tripping when things are plugged in or unplugged. been fixed for the most part, cost is high as well, also code in practice will depend on where you live. In school we used the 2014 although all municipalities use the 2008 in my area. I'd advise you to have your buddy help you. He should be familiar with local practices

 

[Brew12]

Anyone here familiar with national electric code in practice? Buying a new house that has fuses And only 60a service so I’m upgrading to a breaker panel, however I’m reading that if I “modify or extend” any circuits code dictates I have to put AFCI breakers on those circuits. I’m told this are trip happy (and 10x the cost)

The modification of course would be replace old wires with new Romex to the tank outlets (And gfci of course). Pulling a permit for this and an electrician friend is doing the panel for me so I want it to be right. I would be running the new romex and replacing outlets. Obviously each inspector is different but curious what folks are seeing.

@Brew12 ?

Thanks for reaching out!!
Yes, by the NEC you would be required to upgrade the home to meet code when you replace the fuse panel. You have to bring every circuit up to code since you are replacing the panel. Unfortunately, I don't have the latest copy of the NEC yet so I can't tell you exactly what the most current requirements are. I need to remember to order that soon.
Another thing to keep in mind is that there are local electrical codes. They can be more or less strict than the NEC. They may even use a version of the NEC that is pre-AFCI. If you friend is a union electrician he should be able to find the local requirements through the IBEW.
AFCI's are not nearly as bad as they used to be. You probably can't run metal halides on them, and T-5's could be questionable. And yes, they are much more expensive.

 

[Captmcfly]

Thanks for reaching out!!
Yes, by the NEC you would be required to upgrade the home to meet code when you replace the fuse panel. You have to bring every circuit up to code since you are replacing the panel. Unfortunately, I don't have the latest copy of the NEC yet so I can't tell you exactly what the most current requirements are. I need to remember to order that soon.
Another thing to keep in mind is that there are local electrical codes. They can be more or less strict than the NEC. They may even use a version of the NEC that is pre-AFCI. If you friend is a union electrician he should be able to find the local requirements through the IBEW.
AFCI's are not nearly as bad as they used to be. You probably can't run metal halides on them, and T-5's could be questionable. And yes, they are much more expensive.

brew12 are you An ibew brother I’m out of local 43

 

[Brew12]

brew12 are you An ibew brother I’m out of local 43

I am not. I'm an electrical engineer that specializes in high/medium voltage power distribution. We do have a great team of IBEW guys at our facility that I am friends with and who do a lot of work for me.

 

[Captmcfly]

I am not. I'm an electrical engineer that specializes in high/medium voltage power distribution. We do have a great team of IBEW guys at our facility that I am friends with and who do a lot of work for me.

Sadly we lost a brother to medium voltage on Friday, it’s still under investigation. From what I have been told they were pulling wire into a vault containing 13.2kv transformers and there was an explosion.
to any would be home electricians please be very careful keeping aquariums is a hobby, electrical work is not.

 

[Sleepydoc]

We have a house that was built in 2011 and had the service panel replaced in 2014 (the original electrician didn’t seal it properly, allowing moisture to get in and corrode the breakers and main bus)

Most of the breakers are AFCI, per code, and we have had virtually no issues with them. My T5s run just fine and I think I may have had to replace one of the breakers that got glitchy.

+1 to having an electrician help you. Like many things, electrical work is not terribly difficult but you need to know what you’re doing and I’d you don’t things can end very badly.

 

[Johnd651]

Did a full panel upgrade and solar year and a half ago. Our muni still was on an older code that didn't require them, but we tried a few (bedroom, hall, dining) afcis on different circuits, just out of curiosity. In our own experience, we found that the GE CAFCIs had no issues, but on the same circuits, everything tripped the square d homeline CAFCIs, tv, vaccum, even the led bulbs. Square d sent us replacements to trial and issue continued.

Since our local code is pre-afci we ended up removing them.

Short answer... depends on your local code.

 

[highest_tides]

NEC 2017 language say's if you relocate over 6 feet you need to AFCI everything you can. Also, all bedrooms and living areas need to be AFCI by code in general.

 

[User1]

I can't speak of codes but will say that our new home built in 2015 had them and they are a nightmare. Things that turn on and off such as our heaters or suddenly draw a lot of current tripped them constantly. My office with the aquarium for example due to the heaters. Tube amplifier, vacuum, etc. Could't figure it out. Builder came out didn't see anything. Called an electrician and we spoke for about an hour. Lad didn't charge me a dime. Just took the time to explain the breakers, how they worked, and the number of calls he gets on them.

In any case swapped the one out in my den and never had the issue since. Maybe they are improved by now some 5 years later. One would hope so. All I can say is I had nothing but trouble them and not a fan.

 

[Sleepydoc]

I can't speak of codes but will say that our new home built in 2015 had them and they are a nightmare. Things that turn on and off such as our heaters or suddenly draw a lot of current tripped them constantly. My office with the aquarium for example due to the heaters. Tube amplifier, vacuum, etc. Could't figure it out. Builder came out didn't see anything. Called an electrician and we spoke for about an hour. Lad didn't charge me a dime. Just took the time to explain the breakers, how they worked, and the number of calls he gets on them.

In any case swapped the one out in my den and never had the issue since. Maybe they are improved by now some 5 years later. One would hope so. All I can say is I had nothing but trouble them and not a fan.

Out of curiosity, what brand circuit breaker/panel do you have? The AFCI breakers have more circuitry than the ‘standard’ breakers and each brand is a bit different. Ultimately, the brand of panel you have determines the brand of breakers you must use since they are not interchangeable, so in most cases, short of changing out the service panel there’s little you can do. (If you’re comfortable doing it, you can swap out an AFCI breaker for a regular one, but no electrician will do that.)

FWIW, we have an Eaton panel and have had 0 issues with it.

 

[AlexG]

I run AFCI/GFCI circuits on my aquarium circuits. I have never had any issues with the breakers tripping with aquarium equipment without some kind of event taking place. Only trips that I have had were utility related power hits or when I used a miter saw on the AFCI circuits since the motor brushes will generate a small arc that is sometimes enough to trip the breaker. I would rather have an extra level of protection in place just in case.

 

[User1]

Out of curiosity, what brand circuit breaker/panel do you have? The AFCI breakers have more circuitry than the ‘standard’ breakers and each brand is a bit different. Ultimately, the brand of panel you have determines the brand of breakers you must use since they are not interchangeable, so in most cases, short of changing out the service panel there’s little you can do. (If you’re comfortable doing it, you can swap out an AFCI breaker for a regular one, but no electrician will do that.)

FWIW, we have an Eaton panel and have had 0 issues with it.

I do not recall the panel name or anything noticeable upon opening the door. I'll check here in a bit though. I'm curious. But yes, that is what I did. I left them on the rooms and areas they are supposed to be on. The den / office I guess is considered a possible bedroom in the home plans so had one. I just replaced it and the problems went away.

I'm not suggesting anyone do this. I'm a rules follower for sure especially around building codes, family safety, etc. But in our case with the breakers they used anything that suddenly came on and drew high current or amperage tripped it time and time again.

 

[Sleepydoc]

I do not recall the panel name or anything noticeable upon opening the door. I'll check here in a bit though. I'm curious. But yes, that is what I did. I left them on the rooms and areas they are supposed to be on. The den / office I guess is considered a possible bedroom in the home plans so had one. I just replaced it and the problems went away.

I'm not suggesting anyone do this. I'm a rules follower for sure especially around building codes, family safety, etc. But in our case with the breakers they used anything that suddenly came on and drew high current or amperage tripped it time and time again.

That is odd - all breakers should trip on current. Arc Fault breakers look for a characteristic pattern generated by arcing. It’s probalby too late for that now, but it might have been worth a call to the company that made the breakers.

Historically certain motors would cause issues because the brushes can cause enough arcing to fool the breaker. Our neighbors had a treadmill that would cause the breaker to trip, and I’ve heard of vacuum cleaners causing issues. Something I just thought of - Maybe it wasn’t the current load itself but the relay used to turn the devices on. If the breakers were just exceptionally sensitive the relay in the heater may have caused enough of an arc when it switched on to make it trip?

 

[alton]

According to our residential department 15 amp will have more issues than 20 amp. The Square D Plant in Mexico is shut down so everything is back ordered. Siemens rep says no issues. Siemens and Square D have done away with the pigtails so the panel looks much nicer with less terminations. We use insulated staples so problems are non-existent with 20 amp AFCI breakers. With installing a new panel with older wiring you may run into some issues where the AFCI breakers may not hold, and require you use AFCi Receptacles? You will need AFCI breakers everywhere but Garages and unfinished basements. Once again check your local codes, many places are way behind in requirements.

 

[Brew12]

I do not recall the panel name or anything noticeable upon opening the door. I'll check here in a bit though. I'm curious. But yes, that is what I did. I left them on the rooms and areas they are supposed to be on. The den / office I guess is considered a possible bedroom in the home plans so had one. I just replaced it and the problems went away.

I'm not suggesting anyone do this. I'm a rules follower for sure especially around building codes, family safety, etc. But in our case with the breakers they used anything that suddenly came on and drew high current or amperage tripped it time and time again.

My guess is that the loads you had problems with used a mechanical contactor to turn them on or off. They have arcing contacts to protect the main contacts. These can cause problems for AFCI's based on my experience. Basically, anything that makes a loud clunk sound when it turns on. HVAC equipment and older electric clothes dryers being the worst.

 

[Johnd651]

According to our residential department 15 amp will have more issues than 20 amp. The Square D Plant in Mexico is shut down so everything is back ordered. Siemens rep says no issues. Siemens and Square D have done away with the pigtails so the panel looks much nicer with less terminations. We use insulated staples so problems are non-existent with 20 amp AFCI breakers. With installing a new panel with older wiring you may run into some issues where the AFCI breakers may not hold, and require you use AFCi Receptacles? You will need AFCI breakers everywhere but Garages and unfinished basements. Once again check your local codes, many places are way behind in requirements.

Interesting...why was there issues with 15A? That's where all our issues were.

 

[alton]

Interesting...why was there issues with 15A? That's where all our issues were.

Not sure since most of our work is inside the city and requires 12g wire and 20 amp breakers, but if and when we do a subdivision in the county they switch to 15 amp and 14 gauge wire to remain competitive.
210-12D Exception will be your friend if you do not remove/replace all the old wiring. Just on the new wiring and new circuits.

 

[SoggyNW]

Also an electrician. The test button on an AFCI breaker actually has a diagnostic function built it. I don't know how each brand works but on a square d, if the breaker trips hold down the test button and reset the breaker. If the breaker retrips immediately it is a short, if it retrips after a moment it is an arc fault issue.

The biggest issue I run across with installing these breakers in old houses us they do not tolerate the neutrals being crossed with other circuits. That used to not be an issue and was actually viewed by some as a safety feature. Now it will cause AFCI to trip as soon as a load is applied.

 

[Johnd651]

Not sure since most of our work is inside the city and requires 12g wire and 20 amp breakers, but if and when we do a subdivision in the county they switch to 15 amp and 14 gauge wire to remain competitive.
210-12D Exception will be your friend if you do not remove/replace all the old wiring. Just on the new wiring and new circuits.

Also an electrician. The test button on an AFCI breaker actually has a diagnostic function built it. I don't know how each brand works but on a square d, if the breaker trips hold down the test button and reset the breaker. If the breaker retrips immediately it is a short, if it retrips after a moment it is an arc fault issue.

The biggest issue I run across with installing these breakers in old houses us they do not tolerate the neutrals being crossed with other circuits. That used to not be an issue and was actually viewed by some as a safety feature. Now it will cause AFCI to trip as soon as a load is applied.

So as part of our solar, we removed all the old panels, and installed a new Square D Homeline 8 breaker 200A pass through outside to a Square D Homeline with push on neutral bar 40 breaker 200A inside. Wiring had been redone. When we had the issue, square d did have me do as you mentioned with holding the test button, and we never found an issue. They were all 15A circuits. We tried a GE CAFCI out of curiosity, and never had an issue. The Square D tripped only when something was actually switched ON, but it felt like anything we tried tripped it. Same circuit with the GE, never tripped (except maybe vacuum).