Against all advice and better judgment

[Kactai]

Hi All,

Do any of you do things the wrong way even though you know it could lead to disaster?

Here’s my story.... it’s a bit of a read.

I’m currently stocking a 180g mixed reef tank and I’ve added 6 fish so far. All about 2 weeks apart and all fish were observed for a decent amount of time at the LFS before purchasing. I used observation and trust in my LFS instead of proper quarantine procedures. So far everything has been great.

That’s one flagrant disregard for all proper advice.

Then last night while we were looking for #7. They had in the most healthy looking vibrant and small powder blue tang I had ever seen. I justified the aqusition by telling myself that they never look that good when they come in and we never see them that small. I knew that if I left him there I may not see another like him for a good while. I watched him graze on the rocks and swim like a king with his fins splayed out majestically. so I got him didn’t QT him and put him in the display.

He’s in with two midnight black clowns, a yellow flanked fairy wrasse, a rare moyeri wrasse, a Swiss guard baslette and a tail spot blenny. He’s #7. I know about powder blues and how tough they can be to keep. I know they are ich magnets and should be quarantined and treated and I know tangs and larger fish should be added last but i risked it all anyways for this fish. I tell myself it’s so that he could have a good home... talk about convincing myself.

This will most likely go the first of two ways. I learn a very harsh lesson and mess up all the process I’ve made with the tank. Way less likely is that everything goes smoothly and I learn that there are no actual rules to this game (worst lesson I could possibly learn).

I have hospital tanks available should the need arise and I have fish traps and medication at the ready.

I want to hear horror stories and success stories from people doing it the wrong way.

Thanks and feel free to blast me for my terrible behaviour. I think I need to hear it so I can change my ways... I’m always trying to improve and i plan to make the best out of the situation I put myself in. Is this the worst thing you’ve heard of? Could I have been more terrible?

 

[KMench]

Bought about 7 fish from LA when I started my tank and put them in without QT. They went in with one clownfish who was from Petco.... Needless to say they all got velvet and died. Total tank fish meltdown. Went fallow, set up a QT and did it the right way after that. Now, no problems.

 

[Greybeard]

Eh.

I know the current 'best practices' line... I've been keeping marine aquariua since the early 1980's, and have never owned, or used, a quarantine tank. There's a big thread on here about anecdotal evidence and aquarists attributing too much significance to their own experiences... Here's one. Never needed a quarantine tank before... don't want to maintain one. Should I reevaluate that position based on other people's experiences? Maybe... but I'm unlikely to do so.

I've had ich, once (~1997?), and GBD in my horse herd, once (circa 1993).

I don't buy fish online. I don't buy from retailers I don't trust. I visibly inspect my fish closely before taking them home, see them eat, etc... and then I take my chances. (and I don't buy fish that carry that 'ich magnet' label.)

I also don't believe for a second you and I are the only ones eschewing the quarantine process. I know many people who keep marine aquariums. I know very, very few that maintain a quarantine system. I'm not going to try and argue against them... I am not interested in talking anybody out of the practice. Works for you? You've got the room? Don't mind maintaining multiple tanks? Great. I'm maintaining AN aquarium. Don't want more than one, even on a temporary basis. Folks talking about the ULMS series that BRS is doing... Add a 20g quarantine tank, and try to justify that as low maintenance

 

[Eastlake]

Have to quarantine, MUST quarentine. I did not and I've lost some fish with the coolest personalities and it left me with a broken heart. Here's the kicker, not all of my fish passed away from the crypto (ick) outbreak and I re-stocked, but since the tank was never fallow the parasite never went away. So I still have a large fish population that I'm not easily able to remove because it's a 150 gallon aquarium with a bunch of corals that are encrusted across the rocks so, again, I can't get the fish out to treat them and let the tank lay fallow. So now for what I'm attempting to do. Keep the tank temperature low to slow down the reproductive process of the parasite (74*F), soak all feedings in selcon and garlic guard (yes I know all of the conflicting info about prolonged usage of garlic extract and only intend to use it until visible cysts are no longer present) to help boost immunity in order to try to fight off the parasite. All feedings for the rest of time will be soaked in selcon. So, since I did not quarantine I will have to deal with this until I can get all of the fish out or until my current plan fails and I have to go through heart break at the hand of my own negligence. Be a better wet pet parent then me and quarantine all new additions.

 

[Bdrake]

I'm guilty of getting elbow deep without gloves. Some people just need to learn the hard way

 

[Brew12]

I want to hear horror stories and success stories from people doing it the wrong way.

Thanks and feel free to blast me for my terrible behaviour. I think I need to hear it so I can change my ways... I’m always trying to improve and i plan to make the best out of the situation I put myself in. Is this the worst thing you’ve heard of? Could I have been more terrible?

Most people know I'm a big fan of QT practices and nothing goes into my tank without being treated with copper or CP.

That doesn't mean you are doing it the "wrong way". You are doing it a different way. As long as you understand and adapt to what those differences are, you should be fine.

Use high quality food. You can supplement with pellets and/or flake but don't make that your main source of nutrition. Feed heavy and don't try to run your tank perfectly clean. You want fauna in your system for the fish to graze on. Even if the fish don't graze on it directly they will snack on the stuff that is feeding on the algae in your tank. The ocean isn't sterile, and your tank shouldn't be either.

Be very cautious when it comes to equipment and redundancy. Many people who don't QT have no problems at all until they have a return pump or heater failure. The stress causes the fishes immunity to drop and opens the door to a parasite infestation.

Make sure all the fish you add are compatible. If you try to put multiple similar tangs in your tank and they start fighting that will lead to stress and opens the door to parasites.


Is the way you are doing it my way? Not a chance. Is it wrong? Nope. Its just a different way. The only thing that will make this way "wrong" is if you try to treat your system as if everything had been through QT.

 

[Greybeard]

<snip>The stress causes the fishes immunity to drop and opens the door to a parasite infestation.

Make sure all the fish you add are compatible. If you try to put multiple similar tangs in your tank and they start fighting that will lead to stress and opens the door to parasites.</snip>

Yup. I strive to maintain a low stress environment. Don't pack the system with fish, don't buy aggressive fish... I don't keep predators, obligate pod eaters, known jumpers, etc. That's what works in my tank. I like planktivores, grazers, scavengers, peaceful, community fish.

Yes, I have a scopas tang... but only one tang, and he's small. At some point, I may need to trade him in on another small tang.

 

[dansreef]

I have been keeping SW tanks since the 80's. I have never QT'd a fish, coral or anything else. Have I experienced ich? Yes. Has it wiped out a tank? No. Will I ever QT a fish.... maybe if the time was right, if I had a concern about a specimen.... but I think it is unlikely. If I had a concern, the fish would be sent back. I am a huge believer of knowing who you buy from and understanding how they treat their fish. I agree a lot with @Greybeard and try to maintain a low stress environment. I also like to get fish acclimated into my systems as quickly and effectively as I can. I have ordered from LA and have not had an issue. Could it happen..? Sure. I don't buy something from a source I don't trust. There are LFS that I will buy coral from but not fish....and vice versa. The stores that have really good fish, and do a great job of managing them in their systems are also not going to be the least expensive. I would rather buy a more expensive fish that has been well conditioned.

As for tangs... I have a few in my 180, Convict, Naso, Yellow and also a Rabbit...I know it is not a tang... No, I don't have a powder of any color.

 

[Daniel@R2R Verified Admin]

I believe strongly in QT. However, you may (hopefully will) dodge the bullet this time around. I'd just caution that getting lucky this time or even 10x doesn't mean the general best practice is wrong or not needed. Eventually playing with fire will get you burned (at least statistically speaking), but I'm hoping everything works out great for this new acquisition! Best of luck to you and your new fishies!

 

[lion king]

Today most fish have issues, 15 of the my 23 fish have been treated for one thing or another, and several have died. I currently qt but for the 1st 20 years I never did, and lost very few fish and never had a disease outbreak in any of my tanks. Today forget about it.

My 1st tank was a 40 breeder with a humu, niger, and undulated trigger; how ridiculous is that. The niger and humu went through 2 tank changes to end up in a 180 and living with me for over 10 years. The undulated went to a local bar, my hang out at the time; lived in a 1000g and became a bar favorite for over a decade.

Things just aren't black and white.

 

[van7271]

Eh.

I know the current 'best practices' line... I've been keeping marine aquariua since the early 1980's, and have never owned, or used, a quarantine tank. There's a big thread on here about anecdotal evidence and aquarists attributing too much significance to their own experiences... Here's one. Never needed a quarantine tank before... don't want to maintain one. Should I reevaluate that position based on other people's experiences? Maybe... but I'm unlikely to do so.

I've had ich, once (~1997?), and GBD in my horse herd, once (circa 1993).

I don't buy fish online. I don't buy from retailers I don't trust. I visibly inspect my fish closely before taking them home, see them eat, etc... and then I take my chances. (and I don't buy fish that carry that 'ich magnet' label.)

I also don't believe for a second you and I are the only ones eschewing the quarantine process. I know many people who keep marine aquariums. I know very, very few that maintain a quarantine system. I'm not going to try and argue against them... I am not interested in talking anybody out of the practice. Works for you? You've got the room? Don't mind maintaining multiple tanks? Great. I'm maintaining AN aquarium. Don't want more than one, even on a temporary basis. Folks talking about the ULMS series that BRS is doing... Add a 20g quarantine tank, and try to justify that as low maintenance

Agree fully. Have been in the hobby for more than 10 years. Have had the same experience.

 

[rstrann]

I never qt anymore. Both times I did it, I lost the fish. One was a leopard wrasse and the other a sunburst anthias. I dealt with ich on newcomers a couple times, but they were able to come through with no worries. And I keep lots and lots of ich magnets (tangs). Key is to have healthy fish in a peaceful community that have optimal immune systems. I could plop several ich infested fish into my 180 with a yellow Tang, convict, hippo, and powder blue, and I wouldn't worry one bit. Any time I've put an ichy fish in there, it clears up fast and I never see one Tang adversely affected.

 

[Susan Edwards]

I lost 9 out of 13 fish to MV. Had 4 survivors. Went fallow and treated those left. Tried to qt 2 mandarins. Lost them. Next 2 went right into display. 1 never did good. Lost it. Put 3 bangaii and one fire fish in qt. Lost all but one bangaii. Next batch was 4 anthias-2 purple queens, 2 dispar. Wasn't willing to lose them. In the display and are fine.

for the new tank (125 gal), I just got my first internet order from LA (so far have not found a lfs with good fish and they don't offer any guarantees). I had a 37 gal display refugium. Removed all rock, majority of sand, kept most of the water, removed canister filter, added hob filter and some fake plants and pvc fittings. It is what I call my acclimation tank where I can observe. Unless I see an issue, I don't plan to medicate. Plan is to feed well a mix of various frozen including some I made, and observe. Exception might be when I go to buy tangs. Might treat them just because. Have meds on hand if needed.

I've lost so many fish in qt, and it might have been stress, the unstableness of a small qt tank, that I'm just not totally convinced it makes a difference down the road. Something will get into there somehow no matter how diligent you are. So then Your fish and tank are doing great, something happens to stress fish out and guess what? Wipe out.

Basically I'm on the fence

 

[Lasse]

I rather often do the opposite to "accepted sense". Its means that I have got a lot of experiences .

A friend of mine - that run a LFS up in Stockholm - once said to a customer that come up with a weird idea - give Lasse a call - its likely that he already have done that mistake .

What I have notice during my nearly 50 years as a fish keeper (in one or another form) is that there is many ways to skin a cat. And that many of the rock solid advises of the present knowledge at least are 2 - 3 years old! I try not to give any advises (that´s tuff - I know) but instead always try to give a background information as true as possible. Everyone must try to adapt the advise to its own aquarium - that´s the learning curve.

I´m not the guy that should been trusted with management of a QT - I will kill the inhabitants (trust me - I know). But my experiences say´s that if I put a fish traveled around the world directly in my DT - it could be stressed to death. Therefore - nowadays - I always put a newcomer in my Fuge (another usable function of a fuge) for one or two weeks if possible - however no wrasses will be put in the fuge - 25 cm of sand bed . I did that mistake once - never again. I solved the problem and the wrasse is in the DT again. I have tested with floating cages (like the one you have to FW fishes as breading chambers) for 1 to 2 weeks - and it works very well too.

I got ich once - two clowns - I did not follow any protocol - just got them up and run TTM on them for 7 days and rise the ozon in the DT a little. Back to the DT - and no further problems. It was a 4 year old reef tank with lot of corals (loving eating planktons like newly hatched parasites )

However - I have one rule - I will not try to solve any problem in my aquarium with chemicals that should kill one or another organism I do not want. If I can´t solve it in a biological way (normally I do that sooner or later) I let it be. But my fishes and inverts its not only in the DT in order to be nice and good looking - they often has a mission too

Sincerely Lasse

 

[renato120]

I have over 30 fishes in 3 different tanks. I have never QT any of them. Half of them are from petco. When I first started this hobby I built a QT tank. (40g breeder) Fishes died there stressed. I try a few times and no luck on most of the ones I bought it. After that I stopped. In my opinion a QT tank works better if the fish are already sick, and you try to make them healthy again. Sometimes you can have a fish in QT without showing any deseases. As soon you put them in your DT they get ick, caused by stress from other fishes picking on them and etc.... all the fishes I bought 4 years ago are going strong here. I dont call myself lucky when you have over 30 fishes that never got QT. Its all about water quality, and what you put in there. For an example You can QT a tang for 3 months. But if you put him in there with another tang both will get stressed. You will be lucky if you dont loose both for ick caused by stress. Fishes fighting for territory will stress everything in your tank, every fish! It takes one to get ick, and in no time you will have ick on most of them. A mature tank makes a big difference too. Adding too many fishes in a new tank will cause death. (Type of death people post here saying I have no idea why all my fishes are dying! Help!) My opnion.

 

[Lasse]

Having and breading aggressive Tanganyika and Malawi Chiclids for many year I learned that it was much easier to have a flock of old fishes to adapt a newcomer if I had the new in a cage in the DT tank for a couple of days before introduce them to the other. I always has think that it has to do with the smell of different fishes. No scientific evidence for this at all but the best guess I could do from observed facts.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[deedubz]

I'm also (now) pro qt. I got sick of losing fish from the lfs and "reputable" online vendors. There's only a couple I'll order from now. All 3 lfs near me are a joke.

I started quarantining fish last summer and all was great. Bought a handful of inverts to refresh cuc a few months ago and got prazi immune flukes and ich. Ask me how much fun doing ttm/hypo on 8 fish is(I'm disabled)... Especially when 6 of those fish already went through qt. I HAD a mt.. I now have 4 qts... Two 29gs, a 20g, and a 10g. I didn't want to risk the rare strain of ich that can go months without a host so I gave my entire setup to my niece/nephew in law who are going to run it fallow for 6 months then move their little snow flake eel over from a 40 breeder.

I have a 180 being built so they were getting that tank anyway but this outbreak expedited things a bit. My dragonet was once (really) fat, who eats frozen/pellets/roe/probably cardboard if I offered it, is scrawny from the lack of pods. I've bought 12 bottles from la, 6 pouches from another vendor, and am awaiting my second large batch from algae barn. I just set up the 4th qt for him this morning so he has no competition. I may lose a once "bullet proof" dragonet because of this. All of this because of 20 hermits and snails. Needless to say one of my now 4 qts will be an invert qt.

 

[Jesterrace]

Eh.

I know the current 'best practices' line... I've been keeping marine aquariua since the early 1980's, and have never owned, or used, a quarantine tank. There's a big thread on here about anecdotal evidence and aquarists attributing too much significance to their own experiences... Here's one. Never needed a quarantine tank before... don't want to maintain one. Should I reevaluate that position based on other people's experiences? Maybe... but I'm unlikely to do so.

I've had ich, once (~1997?), and GBD in my horse herd, once (circa 1993).

I don't buy fish online. I don't buy from retailers I don't trust. I visibly inspect my fish closely before taking them home, see them eat, etc... and then I take my chances. (and I don't buy fish that carry that 'ich magnet' label.)

I also don't believe for a second you and I are the only ones eschewing the quarantine process. I know many people who keep marine aquariums. I know very, very few that maintain a quarantine system. I'm not going to try and argue against them... I am not interested in talking anybody out of the practice. Works for you? You've got the room? Don't mind maintaining multiple tanks? Great. I'm maintaining AN aquarium. Don't want more than one, even on a temporary basis. Folks talking about the ULMS series that BRS is doing... Add a 20g quarantine tank, and try to justify that as low maintenance

I also don't do the standard QT, however after having a fish die from ich, I am doing a modified version of it and having my LFS hold onto the each fish for a couple of weeks. That way I can stand a reasonable chance of making sure my fish are healthy before they go in my tank. I currently have a tiny pajama cardinal at my LFS going through that phase and given that it is captive bred I should have a fairly healthy fish. If not? Well, the fish was pretty cheap.

 

[lion king]

QT tanks have to set up properly, most are not; and most info online is sadly ineffective. When I qt'd a leopard wrasse; I set up the tank with sand and a live rock full of pods. My large angels went into a 55g with pieces of mature rock for grazing and cryptic sponges. I immediately dose prazi pro in case of parasites. No need to start an argument but prophetically treating for ich does not work and just poisons your fish, like they haven't already ingested enough. My main concern in qt is the eradication of parasites, so many(I believe most) fish come in parasites and establishing especially difficult fish to living in captivity. Some fish do better with other fish and need the environment of an established display tank, so sometimes to the dt in just a couple of weeks after clear of parasites.

 

[Brew12]

QT tanks have to set up properly, most are not; and most info online is sadly ineffective. When I qt'd a leopard wrasse; I set up the tank with sand and a live rock full of pods. My large angels went into a 55g with pieces of mature rock for grazing and cryptic sponges. I immediately dose prazi pro in case of parasites. No need to start an argument but prophetically treating for ich does not work and just poisons your fish, like they haven't already ingested enough. My main concern in qt is the eradication of parasites, so many(I believe most) fish come in parasites and establishing especially difficult fish to living in captivity. Some fish do better with other fish and need the environment of an established display tank, so sometimes to the dt in just a couple of weeks after clear of parasites.

I'm not sure I understand your post. First, why do you not agree with the scientific studies that show treating for Ich works? Second, if your main concern is the eradication of parasites why don't you treat for ich, which is a parasite?