Aggression damage or disease? Sunset Anthias in QT

[TeeJay87]

I’m new to the hobby and this is my first quarantine. I have not dosed anything, but have cupramine on hand and have access to several fish stores. Fish (5 sunset anthias, a princess Anthias and a YWG) are on day 7 of quarantine and have been doing great since day 1. On day 5 and 6, noticed the dominant sunset anthias seemed a bit too aggressive for my liking (monopolizing the swimming space). I tried the egg crate to separate yesterday, but all fish can squeeze through and I will attach 1/8 netting to separate asap.

I just noticed this white area on the side of a sunset that appears a bit fuzzy under certain angles of the light. I noticed this particular sunset was being dominated by the lead sunset yesterday (lips were locked for several second periods). Based on these attached photos, is it obvious whether this is damage done by the dominant Sunset or is it obviously some particular disease? Only this 1 side of the fish appears affected; as I’m looking at these pictures now and thinking, I wonder if it perhaps scraped itself on the snipped end of the egg crate which is against the glass.

Salinity 1.018; Temp 78.5; Ammonia 0 per Seachem ammonia alert; respiratory rate ~88 / min.

 

[vetteguy53081]

I’m new to the hobby and this is my first quarantine. I have not dosed anything, but have cupramine on hand and have access to several fish stores. Fish (5 sunset anthias, a princess Anthias and a YWG) are on day 7 of quarantine and have been doing great since day 1. On day 5 and 6, noticed the dominant sunset anthias seemed a bit too aggressive for my liking (monopolizing the swimming space). I tried the egg crate to separate yesterday, but all fish can squeeze through and I will attach 1/8 netting to separate asap.

I just noticed this white area on the side of a sunset that appears a bit fuzzy under certain angles of the light. I noticed this particular sunset was being dominated by the lead sunset yesterday (lips were locked for several second periods). Based on these attached photos, is it obvious whether this is damage done by the dominant Sunset or is it obviously some particular disease? Only this 1 side of the fish appears affected; as I’m looking at these pictures now and thinking, I wonder if it perhaps scraped itself on the snipped end of the egg crate which is against the glass.

Salinity 1.018; Temp 78.5; Ammonia 0 per Seachem ammonia alert; respiratory rate ~88 / min.

Appears to be bacterial . You may have to place in Quarantine and treat But there is one option although not typical protocol should work:
You can give fish a 60-90 min bath with ruby rally pro. Then treat for 5-7 days using ruby rally
Ruby is reef safe and can be applied in tank but recommended is in QT

 

[TeeJay87]

Appears to be bacterial . You may have to place in Quarantine and treat But there is one option although not typical protocol should work:
You can give fish a 60-90 min bath with ruby rally pro. Then treat for 5-7 days using ruby rally
Ruby is reef safe and can be applied in tank but recommended is in QT

Edit for more critical question: If I can’t get ruby rally pro for up to 3 days and I can get Erythromycin now, which would you go with? Thanks!

This is a 20g quarantine tank. Can I treat with Ruby with all 7 fish (5 sunsets, 1 princess anthia, 1 YWG)? Or would you separate the affected fish in a new tank and treat there?

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

I’m new to the hobby and this is my first quarantine. I have not dosed anything, but have cupramine on hand and have access to several fish stores. Fish (5 sunset anthias, a princess Anthias and a YWG) are on day 7 of quarantine and have been doing great since day 1. On day 5 and 6, noticed the dominant sunset anthias seemed a bit too aggressive for my liking (monopolizing the swimming space). I tried the egg crate to separate yesterday, but all fish can squeeze through and I will attach 1/8 netting to separate asap.

I just noticed this white area on the side of a sunset that appears a bit fuzzy under certain angles of the light. I noticed this particular sunset was being dominated by the lead sunset yesterday (lips were locked for several second periods). Based on these attached photos, is it obvious whether this is damage done by the dominant Sunset or is it obviously some particular disease? Only this 1 side of the fish appears affected; as I’m looking at these pictures now and thinking, I wonder if it perhaps scraped itself on the snipped end of the egg crate which is against the glass.

Salinity 1.018; Temp 78.5; Ammonia 0 per Seachem ammonia alert; respiratory rate ~88 / min.

I'd say this is aggression damage followed by secondary bacterial infection. You'll need to be careful dosing antibiotics in a QT like that, you may wipe out the beneficial bacteria (so monitor the ammonia closely).

A bigger question is what do you plan to do with the whole group overall? You're on day 7, but have you tgreated them with anything yet?

Jay

 

[TeeJay87]

I'd say this is aggression damage followed by secondary bacterial infection. You'll need to be careful dosing antibiotics in a QT like that, you may wipe out the beneficial bacteria (so monitor the ammonia closely).

A bigger question is what do you plan to do with the whole group overall? You're on day 7, but have you tgreated them with anything yet?

Jay

Thanks Jay. I‘m not treating with anything prophylactically. Was hoping to quarantine about 4 weeks then add to my 75g display. I’m doing a 50% water change every 48-72 hours. All of this is the advice/approach I’m following from Austin Lefevre’s 2016 MACNA quarantine presentation on YouTube. He also recommended buying your book, which I’m planning to do tonight after I figure out my immediate next steps on this issue.

Based on your question, I take it you are suggesting I should have already been treating the quarantine tank with something. Is that right and what would you suggest?

 

[TeeJay87]

I’m thinking of starting the 4 day treatment of API’s fin and body cure (doxycycline hyclate) since I can easily acquire now. And I will order rally pro, which should arrive by the time this treatment is over. Would you approve this approach?

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Thanks Jay. I‘m not treating with anything prophylactically. Was hoping to quarantine about 4 weeks then add to my 75g display. I’m doing a 50% water change every 48-72 hours. All of this is the advice/approach I’m following from Austin Lefevre’s 2016 MACNA quarantine presentation on YouTube. He also recommended buying your book, which I’m planning to do tonight after I figure out my immediate next steps on this issue.

Based on your question, I take it you are suggesting I should have already been treating the quarantine tank with something. Is that right and what would you suggest?

I'm not a big fan of observational quarantine, especially with fish like anthias that are prone to protozoans and flukes. I agree anthias can be delicate, and don't like some medications, but you don't want them to bring anything into your DT.

The trouble in this case is that the fish already have "something". I don't like to dose multiple medications. What about treating with antibiotics as you suggest, and then running a course of hyposalinity?

Here is our current quarantine protocol:

Current Quarantine Protocol

2024 Quarantine Procedures Jay Hemdal David Scarborough Protozoans (Cryptocaryon/ich, Amyloodinium/velvet) and Metazoan trematodes/flukes are by far the most common parasites found on newly acquired fish. A carefully managed, proactive quarantine process can effectively eliminate these...

www.reef2reef.com

Jay

 

[TeeJay87]

Well that was fast. The fish passed overnight and before I had treated with anything as the Fin and Body Cure arrived at 5:30am.

Does the timeline and the pics (see below) help confirm what the cause of death was?

Any advice you can give on next steps for the others in quarantine (4 sunset anthias, 1 princess anthia, 1 YWG)? I have cupramine and the fin and body cure in my possession. Start treating with either of these or something else?

One bit of info that may be relevant: for the last 10 days or so the quarantine tank has had cloudiness in the water from what I understood (after limited googling) to be a harmless bacterial bloom that is common to new tank setups and goes away with time. I knew I would be doing frequent (48-72 hr) water changes, which do feed the bloom but assumed any negative effect would be mitigated by the WCs. Maybe this cloudiness bacteria resulted in the infection. If this was likely the cause, I should get rid of the bloom asap. Any recommendations?

This sucks. I consumed all info I could find on YouTube and via podcasts on setting up a quarantine tank, and I hoped that I would have time to deal with any diseases that popped up. Now I realize my lack of preparedness likely failed this fish.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Sorry to hear. I would run a standard quarantine on the remaining fish as I linked to in my post.
The cloudy water is another issue - are you monitoring the ammonia level? You need to supply good aeration to offset the loss of oxygen taken up by the bacteria.
Jay

 

[Fishfreak2009]

To me that looks like Uronema, to which anthias are extremely susceptible.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

To me that looks like Uronema, to which anthias are extremely susceptible.

I agree the most recent picture looks like Uronema on the fish’s right side, but the pictures from last night didn’t show that. I’m wondering if in this case, the redness is bacterial?
Jay

 

[Fishfreak2009]

I agree the most recent picture looks like Uronema on the fish’s right side, but the pictures from last night didn’t show that. I’m wondering if in this case, the redness is bacterial?
Jay

Possibly? Although Uronema can progress quickly IME, and I've seen the raised scales like that on Chromis and Anthias. Those scales always lifted, then fell off and exposed the bloody patches within 18 hrs each time.

 

[TeeJay87]

It is in the freezer for now. If there is anything I can do to help confirm either way, please let me know. I did take a short video when I was taking the pictures last night.

 

[TeeJay87]

Sorry to hear. I would run a standard quarantine on the remaining fish as I linked to in my post.
The cloudy water is another issue - are you monitoring the ammonia level? You need to supply good aeration to offset the loss of oxygen taken up by the bacteria.
Jay

Thanks. Yes, I monitor ammonia with seachem ammonia alert. It has not reached the alert level of .05 free ammonia; maybe I’ve seen a slight twinge of green but the color has always been by far closest to yellow (I check several times a day with a flashlight). I will test with my API test kit for total ammonia and report back.

For aeration, I have a small power head disturbing the water at the top and an aquaclear 50 filter and tidal 35 filter (20 gallon long tank). Is that enough? Should I add an air stone/sponge as well?

 

[TeeJay87]

I’m noticing an eye issue in one of the other sunset anthias now. Looks cloudy and a bit enlarged. I still have not taken action on any treatment as I’m trying to research and not sure whether to treat with copper or something for uronema.

Can you please watch the video below and advise? @Jay Hemdal and any who can help

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

I’m noticing an eye issue in one of the other sunset anthias now. Looks cloudy and a bit enlarged. I still have not taken action on any treatment as I’m trying to research and not sure whether to treat with copper or something for uronema.

Can you please watch the video below and advise? @Jay Hemdal and any who can help

Uronema is basically untreatable, but it also isn't 100% contagious like ich and velvet tends to be.

The eye issue is almost assuredly from the egg crate - that is really rough on fish, see how the anthias poked its head into the opening? They easily get spooked and scratch their eyes. If both eyes become affected, then that can make it an issue for them to find food, otherwise you should be o.k.

Copper then prazi would be my choice here.

Jay

 

[TeeJay87]

To me that looks like Uronema, to which anthias are extremely susceptible.

Whether this was Uronema or not, it seems like the safe approach would be to assume it was. If I understand correctly, while Uronema may not be actively causing symptoms, it is now with the fish, tank and all the equipment.

Is there a way to get rid of the Uronema with these fish before adding them to my 75g display? And if so, how would I integrate that treatment with the standard quarantine treatment stickied on this forum?

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Whether this was Uronema or not, it seems like the safe approach would be to assume it was. If I understand correctly, while Uronema may not be actively causing symptoms, it is now with the fish, tank and all the equipment.

Is there a way to get rid of the Uronema with these fish before adding them to my 75g display? And if so, how would I integrate that treatment with the standard quarantine treatment stickied on this forum?

Uronema (probably two or more different species) is simply not treatable when it is in its internal form. In that state though, it is also not very contagious to other fish.

Uronema is commonly found free living in many aquariums (where it feeds on bacteria). I've found it in virtually 100% of long term established aquariums. Another study found it in about 25% of home aquariums.

Chloroquine will reduce/eliminate the free living form, but will not do much for the internal form. Here is an article I wrote up about it:

Uronema / Red Band Disease - Hemdal

Red Band Syndrome in Marine Fishes: Caused by the Protozoan; Uronema sp. Jay Hemdal Introduction: This moderately common disease of certain species of marine fish is so often misdiagnosed that most aquarists apply incorrect treatment methods...

www.reef2reef.com

Your best bet would be to hold the susceptible anthias for a full quarantine period (~6 weeks) and by then, if they have the internal form, it will have likely shown up.

Jay