Airborne Palytoxins?

Randy Holmes-Farley · Apr 6, 2018

If you are just re-aquascaping, I wouldn't do anything to it. If it is old rock that you want to reuse, I'd bleach it.

jda · Apr 6, 2018

The guy put died-out-previous-live rock into freshwater/RODI and poured anhydrous salt over it to mix. This type of behavior is not likely duplicated by many. Most do not even use anhydrous salt.

The xenia thing has me befuddled.

ESH · Apr 6, 2018

I think I read pressure washed his tank while cleaning in that article too. That would explain the water droplets getting everywhere through water vapor.

brandon429 · Apr 6, 2018

Fox news had it on today that xenia caused this, pulsing xenia. not a mention of protopalys...first id ever ever heard of xeniids having paly, haven't bothered to search yet to see if that's a fact.

jda · Apr 6, 2018

This story is out there about dozen different places. He is from Denver, not the UK... and dialing 999 would not get you too far in the US.

He wrote a story himself on our local board... here is an excerpt:

Most of the salt was an anhydrous salt mix (no, I am not going to name a manufacture). As you may or may not know anhydrous salt reacts with water and gets very hot. The salt was covering the rock as I spread it out all over the place. I truly believe this was when the Palytoxin got literally cooked off the rock.

dilligaf29 · Apr 6, 2018

brandon429 said:
Fox news had it on today that xenia caused this, pulsing xenia. not a mention of protopalys...first id ever ever heard of xeniids having paly, haven't bothered to search yet to see if that's a fact.

i have a whole tank of xenia .i ripp it of rocks cut it off rocks, flip the rocks over and never had any issues i also threw it in my trash can no ill affects at all

zieg9479 · Apr 6, 2018

jda said:
The guy put died-out-previous-live rock into freshwater/RODI and poured anhydrous salt over it to mix. This type of behavior is not likely duplicated by many. Most do not even use anhydrous salt.

The xenia thing has me befuddled.

I'm gonna emphasize that this is straight up stupid. Palytoxin infection occurs by eye, lungs, cuts and ingestion. Heating up the rock will produce steam and aerosilize the toxin.

If anyone is concerned about methods of treating aquaria for palytoxins:
- activated carbon removes over 99% of palytoxin ( tartaglione et al. Toxicon 121(2016))
- proper handling methods according to Pelin et al. Marine drugs 14(2). Considering the extremely high toxicity of some Palythoaspecies, the dermotoxicity of PLTXs and PLTX skin tumor promotion [84,85], we advise against handling Palythoa with bare hands, recommending the use of protective gloves, glasses, and a breathing mask [58,63]. Since disposable latex or nitrile gloves break easily in contact with sharp stone corals or rocks in aquaria, long robust rubber gloves with protection of the forearms are the most suitable ones. Additionally, the use of boiling water or brushing to kill the soft corals in aquaria can be dangerous and is not recommended. The safest method of their eradication is removing undesirable Palythoa colonies along with their substrates from aquaria and throwing them away in a safe condition, while wearing personal protective equipment.

jda · Apr 6, 2018

I agree that this is straight up stupid. I think that getting squirted in the eye or on a cut on your finger while fragging is a much more common example... but we all can learn from this.

Does anybody know FOR SURE if freezing will kill the toxin. Freeze drying only reduces it some - I found this online... but what about -9 degree F of real cold?

Bunnee911 · Apr 6, 2018

I just took a xenia covered rock out for 8 hours. I pulled off all I could and threw it in the trash can.
And NO 8 hours out of the water won’t kill it off.

bhavy · Apr 7, 2018

Al good thoughts but can anyone else confirm Xenia as toxic or that's what the article just went with because maybe he had a lot of it?
I just recently hacked up some Xenia with a razor knife .....no ill effects .

Fourstars · Apr 7, 2018

If you just hack up a bunch with no ill effect then I would say no. I’m guessing that the assumption was it was Xenia, but I bet the tank also had zoanthids.

Randy Holmes-Farley · Apr 7, 2018

jda said:
I agree that this is straight up stupid. I think that getting squirted in the eye or on a cut on your finger while fragging is a much more common example... but we all can learn from this.

Does anybody know FOR SURE if freezing will kill the toxin. Freeze drying only reduces it some - I found this online... but what about -9 degree F of real cold?

I don't see a chemical reason to think freezing at any temp will destroy all of the toxin (maybe not any).

Homestead_Dad · Apr 7, 2018

Why isn’t there more hard data and evidence on these things. All these corals are available to study. Some conflicting data I have seen is:

1: zoanthids don’t contain palytoxin/zoanthids contain palytoxin.

2. Boiling rock will release palytoxin into the air/ heat breaks down palytoxin well before boiling temperatures.

3.dont bleach rocks with palythoas,zoanthids,etc./ bleach breaks down palytoxin.

4. Palytoxin only affects you through cuts, eyes, ingestion, lungs/ palytoxin can be absorbed through the skin.

This list can keep going on and on. Someone really needs to do some research and the findings should be published everywhere you purchase or read about these corals.

Randy Holmes-Farley · Apr 7, 2018

Homestead_Dad said:
Why isn’t there more hard data and evidence on these things. All these corals are available to study. Some conflicting data I have seen is:

1: zoanthids don’t contain palytoxin/zoanthids contain palytoxin.

2. Boiling rock will release palytoxin into the air/ heat breaks down palytoxin well before boiling temperatures.

3.dont bleach rocks with palythoas,zoanthids,etc./ bleach breaks down palytoxin.

4. Palytoxin only affects you through cuts, eyes, ingestion, lungs/ palytoxin can be absorbed through the skin.

This list can keep going on and on. Someone really needs to do some research and the findings should be published everywhere you purchase or read about these corals.

Who would you suggest spend time and money to determine palytoxin levels in different coral species and the various ways to deal with it?

It is 100% certain the bleach will destroy palytoxin that it encounters. Any chemist can look at the structure and tell you that. Whether that means it will destroy every palytoxin molecule that is buried in other organic tissue in a dead coral on a rock can only be determine by careful scientific study, and again, who would spend time and money to do that?

FWIW, identifying and quantifying palytoxin is a complex endeavor. No home hobbyist can do it.

dieselkeeper · Apr 7, 2018

If you're looking to get rid of zoanthids, what about using kalk paste to kill them a little at time and run carbon to remove the toxins.

zieg9479 · Apr 7, 2018

Homestead dad, I have access to science article repositories at work. I was thinking of entering the writing contest. A short piece on the current state of knowledge as far as the reefer needs to know.
Marine toxicology is a burgeoning field. I do suspect funding agencies will be more interested in funding this research as the media continues to publish these pieces but remember every research dollar granted comes at the rejection of another proposal. The economic and public safety risk of palytoxin is marginal compared to other health risks.

Jlentz · Apr 7, 2018

dieselkeeper said:
If you're looking to get rid of zoanthids, what about using kalk paste to kill them a little at time and run carbon to remove the toxins.

Fwiw, this is how I try to keep some of my zoas in Check.