Algae issues? Why dont more people use algae scrubbers?

[Reefering1]

..What do you call the difference between a arguement between 2 groups of people saying the same thing but can't settle on on a mutual, compromising set of words?

 

[mizimmer90]

..What do you call the difference between a arguement between 2 groups of people saying the same thing but can't settle on on a mutual, compromising set of words?

I'm stumped!

 

[Reefering1]

I'll let @KrisReef take a wack at it and check back after the dishes/kitchen...

 

[mizimmer90]

Okay, I've derived a model (only applicable under certain conditions) that predicts we'll make it to 30 pages



N_pages(x, y, z) = 2x + 5y - z

Where x is the number of times we get hung up over language, y is the number of times we agree but posture for street cred, z is the number of people who have read every single comment in this thread.

I'm not sure what the values should be for this joke, so I decided to make the equation just equal 30 so I could prove my point. X=8, y=4, z=6

My model was right!

 

[Garf]

My model was right!

Only till tomorrow at this rate. I have another equation you could perhaps help me with as there’s something wrong with it, just can’t put my finger on it, cheers

Snails + conch + blue actinic = irrelevant
Therefore, Tiny algae disposal = success

 

[00W]

..What do you call the difference between a arguement between 2 groups of people saying the same thing but can't settle on on a mutual, compromising set of words?

Stalemate.

 

[jason2459]

Either one, depending on if it’s sized correctly. You can fine tune with the number of hours run.

How big and how many hours?

I run two ATSs. Supposed to be rather large. I believe they are large and I don't think I necessarily needed to get even one as large as I have even when I had my 180g. I now have a 120g with two rather large scrubbers.



The closest one in that picture is the @Turbo's Aquatics Rev4ish L8. I love it. I would buy it again over and over. The thought and engineering into it is great and looking forward to many more years of advancements from Bud.

Choosing a scrubber size – Turbo's Aquatics

www.turbosaquatics.com

L8: tanks up to about 500g fed ~8 cubes/day
I think it's about a 7"x16" screen

That second scrubber is from WSR on eBay. I don't think he markets or advertises anywhere except a couple YouTube videos. I think it's a great bang for the buck and performs great.

Pardon Our Interruption...

Max tank size 400 gallon
Scrubber screen size 10" x 10"
If it's not listed you can message them and request to buy one and they will make one. I did for a couple extra 10x10 screens.

Both of those grow algae like crazy. The life that grows in them is amazing. I love it.
This last weekends WSR ACS cleaning


The last Turbos ATS cleaning



I run both scrubbers 20 hours a day but stagger the 4 hour off so they are not at the same time. So, effectively I have a scrubber running 24 hours a day.

With out changing something I will still have algae in my tank. Which I want otherwise I would change something. But I don't think adding another scrubber is the answer or a bigger one.

As posted earlier this is my tank up and down. The entire thing. About 12k I think? I don't know exactly but it's not blue. Not hiding anything.


To me it's absolutely perfect. For some it may be hideous. I'm with @Paul B . I don't want a tank full of neon sticks and squeaky clean. I don't strive to have a tank of the month. They look great but not for me. Side note, I have voted Paul's tank so many times over the years to be a tank of the month. lol

 

[mizimmer90]

Only till tomorrow at this rate. I have another equation you could perhaps help me with as there’s something wrong with it, just can’t put my finger on it, cheers

Snails + conch + blue actinic = irrelevant
Therefore, Tiny algae disposal = success

No worries, I can adjust the parameters to fit the data!

...Lol but seriously my model is perfect!

Complete tangent, I totally want a conch, regardless of its cleaning abilities. Those eyes, I just can't even!

Does it need a bunch of algae to survive well? I'm willing to dose algae in my tank

 

[mizimmer90]

How big and how many hours?

I run two ATSs. Supposed to be rather large. I believe they are large and I don't think I necessarily needed to get even one as large as I have even when I had my 180g. I now have a 120g with two rather large scrubbers.



The closest one in that picture is the @Turbo's Aquatics Rev4ish L8. I love it. I would buy it again over and over. The thought and engineering into it is great and looking forward to many more years of advancements from Bud.

Choosing a scrubber size – Turbo's Aquatics

www.turbosaquatics.com

L8: tanks up to about 500g fed ~8 cubes/day
I think it's about a 7"x16" screen

That second scrubber is from WSR on eBay. I don't think he markets or advertises anywhere except a couple YouTube videos. I think it's a great bang for the buck and performs great.

Pardon Our Interruption...

Max tank size 400 gallon
Scrubber screen size 10" x 10"
If it's not listed you can message them and request to buy one and they will make one. I did for a couple extra 10x10 screens.

Both of those grow algae like crazy. The life that grows in them is amazing. I love it.
This last weekends WSR ACS cleaning


The last Turbos ATS cleaning



I run both scrubbers 20 hours a day but stagger the 4 hour off so they are not at the same time. So, effectively I have a scrubber running 24 hours a day.

With out changing something I will still have algae in my tank. Which I want otherwise I would change something. But I don't think adding another scrubber is the answer or a bigger one.

As posted earlier this is my tank up and down. The entire thing. About 12k I think? I don't know exactly but it's not blue. Not hiding anything.


To me it's absolutely perfect. For some it may be hideous. I'm with @Paul B . I don't want a tank full of neon sticks and squeaky clean. I don't strive to have a tank of the month. They look great but not for me. Side note, I have voted Paul's tank so many times over the years to be a tank of the month. lol

Based on my modeling, without any other interventions, algae is expected to always grow in the DT, but at the ratio of the comparative advantages. Only if the comparative advantage of the ATS gets sooo large that your DT is negligible will algae trend to 0.

But I imagine if you have other forms of algae control, even just scrubbing the rocks off once in a while, the model would predict it to help because as the new algae grows in, it will also be at the comparative advantage fraction, skewing the total fraction to be lower. Does this pan out in practice?

 

[VintageReefer]

I would call it nitpicking

The claims were made about the algae turf scrubber solving hair algae problems and supporters contributed their success. With photos and examples

The deniers said thing such as
1) Growing algae in one spot won’t affect algae growing in another
— proven wrong

2) The deniers then segued and argued that it won’t solve all algae problems and there are difficult species requiring special treatments
— agree and we never made those claims. We are talking about common hair algae as far as I remember, which it does work for. I specifically said numerous times that it doesn’t work for me for bubble algae

3) A scrubber won’t eliminate or prevent display algae
— agree to disagree here. Stuck on schematics. Seems we are nitpicking over “algae free” and “eliminate” which I do agree are absolutes, and better words should have been chosen. A scrubber potentially can achieve these things, as can other methods, but most of us running them do have a tiny amount of display algae, which is beneficial for snails and grazers. And this is a choice, because we don’t want to bottom out nutrients. But overall the outbreak has been eliminated, kept under control and not returned, and we have plenty of nutrients for healthy corals and fish and as a result we consider this a success, compared to other methods we tried that had little to zero impact

As for the “absolute words” being discussed, they aren’t false. You potentially could achieve 100% successful removal in many situations with an appropriate sized scrubber and by fine tuning the hours it runs.

Overall the purpose of this thread was to discuss a tool for controlling hair algae and ask why more people choose not to use them, and I have not read one thing about a person who had a negative outcome on their tank from the scrubber. It didn’t crash anyones tank, kill any fish or corals, cause any strange issues etc.

People either have diy models of what I consider a non-ideal design and then it ends up being too much maintenance

Or It works but not as much as they wanted - indicating it’s undersized, underpowered, led timing needs adjustment etc. in this case it needs some tweaks or to be supplemented with another tool

Or it works so well the owner swears by it - numerous examples of this

 

[VintageReefer]

How big and how many hours?

I run two ATSs. Supposed to be rather large. I believe they are large and I don't think I necessarily needed to get even one as large as I have even when I had my 180g. I now have a 120g with two rather large scrubbers.



The closest one in that picture is the @Turbo's Aquatics Rev4ish L8. I love it. I would buy it again over and over. The thought and engineering into it is great and looking forward to many more years of advancements from Bud.

Choosing a scrubber size – Turbo's Aquatics

www.turbosaquatics.com

L8: tanks up to about 500g fed ~8 cubes/day
I think it's about a 7"x16" screen

That second scrubber is from WSR on eBay. I don't think he markets or advertises anywhere except a couple YouTube videos. I think it's a great bang for the buck and performs great.

Pardon Our Interruption...

Max tank size 400 gallon
Scrubber screen size 10" x 10"
If it's not listed you can message them and request to buy one and they will make one. I did for a couple extra 10x10 screens.

Both of those grow algae like crazy. The life that grows in them is amazing. I love it.
This last weekends WSR ACS cleaning


The last Turbos ATS cleaning



I run both scrubbers 20 hours a day but stagger the 4 hour off so they are not at the same time. So, effectively I have a scrubber running 24 hours a day.

With out changing something I will still have algae in my tank. Which I want otherwise I would change something. But I don't think adding another scrubber is the answer or a bigger one.

As posted earlier this is my tank up and down. The entire thing. About 12k I think? I don't know exactly but it's not blue. Not hiding anything.


To me it's absolutely perfect. For some it may be hideous. I'm with @Paul B . I don't want a tank full of neon sticks and squeaky clean. I don't strive to have a tank of the month. They look great but not for me. Side note, I have voted Paul's tank so many times over the years to be a tank of the month. lol

I would think it’s undeniable the scrubbers are contributing greatly to algae control, not 100% elimination, but to a level you feel is perfect. This is a success!

As for why you still have a little algae, you may need to reduce your tank lighting hours a little to tip the scales in favor of the scrubbers. I’ve read of people running them 22 and even 24 hours. But you are already running them a lot. My next step if I were you and hypothetically wanted a greater level of elimination would be to adjust my display lighting and not the scrubbers. However you have fish that graze and I think you have a perfect amount of algae. Enough for them to nip on but not enough to affect the beauty of the tank

 

[jason2459]

Based on my modeling, without any other interventions, algae is expected to always grow in the DT, but at the ratio of the competitive advantages. Only if the ATS gets sooo large that your DT is negligible will algae trend to 0.

But I imagine if you have other forms of algae control, even just scrubbing the rocks off once in a while, the model would predict it to help because as the new algae grows in, it will also be at the comparative advantage fraction, skewing the total fraction to be lower. Does this pan out in practice?

The ATS harvesting I do I believe helps. I wouldn't want to lower nutrients anymore then they are now with everything I add and remove.

Scrubbing the rocks would certainly eliminate what's there if I so desired. I think my fish would be rather angry at me and I wouldn't enjoy my tank nearly as much. I also believe the algae that doesn't grow on the scrubber helps support lots of other life other then fish. Well, not really believe, I know it does. I have quite a lot of videos and pictures under the microscope. I see the most diversification from algae samples.

Our tank's biology up close

ostracod with maturing eggs ats sample 8132019 1 ostracod with maturing eggs ats sample 8132019 2 ostracod with maturing eggs ats sample 8132019 3 ostracod with maturing eggs ats sample 8132019 4 ostracod with maturing eggs ats sample 8132019 5 ostracod with maturing eggs ats...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[mizimmer90]

The ATS harvesting I do I believe helps. I wouldn't want to lower nutrients anymore then they are now with everything I add and remove.

Scrubbing the rocks would certainly eliminate what's there if I so desired. I think my fish would be rather angry at me and I wouldn't enjoy my tank nearly as much. I also believe the algae that doesn't grow on the scrubber helps support lots of other life other then fish. Well, not really believe, I know it does. I have quite a lot of videos and pictures under the microscope. I see the most diversification from algae samples.

Our tank's biology up close

ostracod with maturing eggs ats sample 8132019 1 ostracod with maturing eggs ats sample 8132019 2 ostracod with maturing eggs ats sample 8132019 3 ostracod with maturing eggs ats sample 8132019 4 ostracod with maturing eggs ats sample 8132019 5 ostracod with maturing eggs ats...

www.reef2reef.com

Big fan of your microscope thread BTW!

I'll need to hit you up at some point to get suggestions for a microscope!

 

[VintageReefer]

Complete tangent, I totally want a conch, regardless of its cleaning abilities. Those eyes, I just can't even

Does it need a bunch of algae to survive well? I'm willing to dose algae in my tank

I have a fighting conch in my 75 and a strawberry conch in my nano. I will tell you this is one of the hardest workers in my tank. But you don’t need algae for them, they are sand cleaners. They burrow and come out and spend all day cleaning the sand.

 

[mizimmer90]

I have a fighting conch in my 75 and a strawberry conch in my nano. I will tell you this is one of the hardest workers in my tank. But you don’t need algae for them, they are sand cleaners. They burrow and come out and spend all day cleaning the sand.

I honestly might go to the LFS this week and grab one! I designed my current aquascape with maximum sandbed just so I could enjoy watching this beautiful little guy look around the tank for detritus! Is there much risk of them running low on food in the bed/strategies for supplementing?

 

[VintageReefer]

I have 1 in my 75 for a long time. I have a lot of sandbed covered in rock. He keeps my sand pristine.

I have 1 in my nano 15. I worry I might run out of food in the sand but that tank does need a lot of cleanup. If it gets too clean I’ll move him to my 75

I would suggest getting 1 to start with. Even in a 75g tank I always always see him. He’s active and always cleaning.

 

[Reefering1]

I'm stumped!

Stalemate.

I would call it nitpicking

The claims were made about the algae turf scrubber solving hair algae problems and supporters contributed their success. With photos and examples

The deniers said thing such as
1) Growing algae in one spot won’t affect algae growing in another
— proven wrong

2) The deniers then segued and argued that it won’t solve all algae problems and there are difficult species requiring special treatments
— agree and we never made those claims. We are talking about common hair algae as far as I remember, which it does work for. I specifically said numerous times that it doesn’t work for me for bubble algae

3) A scrubber won’t eliminate or prevent display algae
— agree to disagree here. Stuck on schematics. Seems we are nitpicking over “algae free” and “eliminate” which I do agree are absolutes, and better words should have been chosen. A scrubber potentially can achieve these things, as can other methods, but most of us running them do have a tiny amount of display algae, which is beneficial for snails and grazers. And this is a choice, because we don’t want to bottom out nutrients. But overall the outbreak has been eliminated, kept under control and not returned, and we have plenty of nutrients for healthy corals and fish and as a result we consider this a success, compared to other methods we tried that had little to zero impact

As for the “absolute words” being discussed, they aren’t false. You potentially could achieve 100% successful removal in many situations with an appropriate sized scrubber and by fine tuning the hours it runs.

Overall the purpose of this thread was to discuss a tool for controlling hair algae and ask why more people choose not to use them, and I have not read one thing about a person who had a negative outcome on their tank from the scrubber. It didn’t crash anyones tank, kill any fish or corals, cause any strange issues etc.

People either have diy models of what I consider a non-ideal design and then it ends up being too much maintenance

Or It works but not as much as they wanted - indicating it’s undersized, underpowered, led timing needs adjustment etc. in this case it needs some tweaks or to be supplemented with another tool

Or it works so well the owner swears by it - numerous examples of this

Bingo!! I was thinking "insignificant", "stupid",or "irrelevant". close enough. Seems like a American thing happening here, about the principalities.... " i didn't say you're wrong, but I'm not wrong either.."
Where's everyone from?

 

[mizimmer90]

Bingo!! I was thinking "insignificant", "stupid",or "irrelevant". close enough. Seems like a American thing happening here, about the principalities.... " i didn't say you're wrong, but I'm not wrong either.."
Where's everyone from?

Originally from Florida; grew up by the oceans, snorkeling the reefs as a kid, which is where I think I caught this reefing bug.

Somehow ended up in the Midwest trying to recreate that magic from childhood. I sometimes think how terrified these fish would feel knowing they're thousands of miles away from anything that resembles their natural home lol

 

[wculver]

When people post about algae issues, most suggestions are to get a clean-up crew (two orders from reefcleaners didn't help me), manual removal (easier said than done and it's not going to remove all of the algae plus it'll probably just grow back), or chemicals (I tried Vibrant and it didn't work, and who really wants to add chemicals anyway?), or a blackout (two blackouts temporarily worked for me, but I doubt my fish/corals enjoyed them very much and waiting those 3 days without really knowing whats going on kinda sucked) There are other suggestions but I think these are the top ones.
Enter an algae scrubber. I put a DIY algae scrubber in my sump about 2 months ago, and my tank is virtually algae free with no signs of it reappearing. My nutrients are good (Nitrates @ 1.0-2.5; Phosphates @ 0.05-0.08). I have a heavily stocked tank and I keep my fish well fed.
It seems that most people that have an algae scrubber swear by them, so why are they not used more?
Is it the cost? Store bought ones are a huge expense, especially not seeing the results with your own eyes. My DIY scrubber probably cost less than $80 and it is probably the best the best thing I have done with my tank

For me it was having another thing to clean aside from the skimmer. Having gone the bio pellet route I avoid the cleaning, only add pellets every three months and keep nutrients aligned as needed.

 

[VintageReefer]

Only till tomorrow at this rate. I have another equation you could perhaps help me with as there’s something wrong with it, just can’t put my finger on it, cheers

Snails + conch + blue actinic = irrelevant
Therefore, Tiny algae disposal = success

Just saw this grasp at straws and realized it was a attempted dig at me after Garf read my tank thread. More false assumptions, just as bad as his “the algae floated away” suggestion

Less than 10 snails in the 75g tank. Probably 5-6 in a 75g display. Snails don’t eat long hair algae like in my photos

My conch doesn’t eat algae it’s a sand sifter. It doesn’t climb rockwork or glass and spends all day everyday stirring my sand bed. He’s a shy creature and spends most his time under the sand. The algae issues, when I had them, were on rockwork well out of his reach.

Algae grew despite the few critters and lighting. Even with the lighting and snails and conch, the tank went from no algae to an outbreak when my skimmer air pump died. The snails I had showed no interest in the long hair algae and didnt do anything to help prevent it or eliminate it.

I tried a blackout and it didn’t help as the tank is near my sliding patio door and is exposed to sunlight many hours every morning. After the issue was resolved I have since incorporated white leds to my schedule and the algae has not returned

So yes, Snails + conch + blue actinic = irrelevant = correct. The algae grew and grew despite this. None of these things had any impact in preventing it or eliminating it.

What fixed the issue is replacing my scrubber air pump. I have posted photos 17 days apart with no other changes made showing the progress.

What’s next, the algae got too old and died?