Algae Reactor (Cheato) to control Cyno

[ihavecrabs]

I would recommend a low range test kit for Phosphate. Unfortunately 0 isn't great and 0.25 isn't great either.. trying to get as close to colorless without being colorless and then guessing the reading would be a best guess.

As far as your skimmer, it would be removing DOC that would have otherwise turned into nitrate. Backing it off will certainly improve the nitrate number, but probably not all that quickly though. #reefsquad any recommendations here as I have always added KNO3 or NaNO3 for nitrate?

As far as phosphate, your best bet is to dose to get to your intended level (with an low range test kit) and then to stop and continue testing. Sometimes increased feedings will be enough, sometimes you'll have to dose a little more.

So I currently have BRS reef chili, and LRS Reef frenzy. I hadn't been feeding those as much as I thought the reason for my cyano was too much feeding, but maybe I'm not feeding enough.

I'll start working both of those back into my feeding regimne, maybe every other day type of thing (Monday Reef Frenzy, Tuesday regular flak, Wednesday Reef Chili, Thursday, Friday Flake, Saturday Reef Frenzy, etc)

I"ll also try keeping the skimmer off during the day, and just running it at night.

Thanks for the insight guys. If it seems I'm missing any of your points, please let me know!

I use this stuff for dosing nitrates. It's pretty cheap, food-grade, and the bottle makes about 2 liters of solution at my chosen concentration.

While it's hardly a rule, from my time in the hobby cyano generally has meant excess phosphates. It sounds like you don't have a chaeto reactor yet. If you would first like to try a phosphate reducing media like GFO or a liquid additive like Phosphate RX, that may solve your problem. If you go the chaeto route, I would dose nitrates until they're measurable (1 - 5 ppm) and see if the chaeto can take up the nutrients.

I wouldn't take action without first confirming by testing. As @chipmunkofdoom2 said, it could be high phosphates also.

within the 0.00 to 0.25 range of your current kit, your phosphates could be in this range and be too low, too high, or just right. If you dosed additional or added a removal media, it would be a guess and could lead to more issues.

Salifert for $15-20 or ULR Phosphorus Hanna checker for $50.. Both give the appropriate ranges of 0.015 - 0.10 for what we need to achieve.

 

[Diesel]

Good thread to read.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/algae-as-fuel.392304/#post-4735239

Explains why bacteria are so much more important than algae in the links included in the thread.
Cyano is a product of neglectiance of your tank believe it or not, due to low levels of nutrients means low level of bacteria as results low levels of oxygen.

 

[mcarroll]

Thanks for the input! I would say my phosphate was definitely closer to the colorless (will be buying a new test kit now)

You're fine for now with this kit....you just want a color that's in between zero and .25.....anything that's clearly in between is fine and if you hit 0.25 there's no harm, you just stop dosing.

In the long run I'd suggest either of the Hanna Checkers. I prefer the low range (PPM) checker, not the ultra low range PPB model, myself but either will get the job done without making you guess the color. (Very nice tester, I just don't consider the regular test results useless. )

However, I was also reading some posts of people that had low levels in their tank and started adding Reef Roids and Oyster Feast

Again, you want to hit the nail on the head....that means address the nutrients that are missing – don't add all nutrients.

Your cyano is clearly gaining access to PO4 from the rocks and scavenging N from either the water or something that's blooming with them – they're good at that, so no mystery.

You need to fuel other things in the tank – that's the main goal during the breaking in and maturing of a new tank – let all the microbes grow!

If you limit essential nutrients, you're directly applying the brakes to that process.

Cyano (or something else survivalist) will tend to take the upper hand when that happens – they have greater access to essential nutrients for a variety of reasons.

I'm also thinking of getting this test kit to make sure I'm testing correctly, and getting numbers right.
https://www.bulkreefsupply.com/red-sea-algae-control-multi-test-kit-no3-po4.html

Checker for PO4.

Find out which NO3 kit is the easiest to use/read and go with that one....NO3 is another test that makes you guess what shade of color so you wind up interpreting like I'm having you do with your current PO4 kit. It works, but some folks can't take any uncertainty or otherwise just need a number vs their interpretation.

(@taricha has worked out some techniques for using a colorimeter on a NO3 test you might be interested in if you're nerdy like the rest of us. He needs more exact numbers for some experiments he's running though. )

 

[mcarroll]

However, I was also reading some posts of people that had low levels in their tank and started adding Reef Roids and Oyster Feast

Forgot to add that foods like Oyster Feast and ROE are awesome foods for everything in your reef – and as I said, make sure you're feeding enough.

It's possible you aren't feeding enough, but fixing that won't balance out your nutrients – it will throw the balance further off in the same direction as N and P from the food supply both get rapidly denitrated, adsorbed and/or consumed.

So definitely try either one or both of those products – but do not use food to address a deficiency like we're trying to do.

Pretend your tank is at a drive-thru and you keep trying to sell it a full meal deal when all it's ordering is fries. How would you feel?

Sell it the fries!

Please drive thru...
Next!

 

[mcarroll]

Last thought....

Corals are one of the main things that you want to be growing that will compete for available nutrients with cyano and all the other algae that are possible.

Corals are on the list of critters that would currently be PO4-starved (maybe N-starved somewhat as well) relative to the availability of other nutrients in your tank.

This is to say that one reason for your cyano is your tank having too few corals. (The positive view on having "too many nutrients"!)

Everywhere you see cyano would probably be a GREAT location for a coral at some point.

PLUS a larger population of corals will compete better for all available nutrients than cyano or other algae. You just can't allow them to be limited by the limited macronutrients that are in the water and food sources since they have no access to substrate nutrients. Other things like algae may have that access and it gives them a competitive edge like your cyano is enjoying today.

Here's a great thread that popped up on the topic recently:
Is nutrient control an effective method of treating algae in a reef?

Here are some spoilers, but still go read the thread!!!

it turns out that coral actually like nutrients very much even many recent articles have shown that the old (0 nitrate 0 phos algae control) might be a terrible idea for a reef tank. Here is one good example:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5441187/#!po=46.2121

The issue in a reef tank (or in the real ocean) is more complicated than this article might suggest since corals can also get N and P from foods, but in general, I think a target of 0.02 to 0.03 ppm phosphate is a good balance between many competing issues (pest algae, pest dinos, coral health, etc.).

If you have a particular situation you may want to target higher or lower levels, temporarily or permanently.

Nutrient control and algae is an old wives tale, just ask an old wife. Of course algae needs nutrients but it needs so little that it doesn't matter. If you put clean seawater with zero everything in the sun, it will grow algae. My nitrates are 160 and my po4 is 2.0. See any algae? I even have a hard time growing it on my algae scrubber. There is something else that spurs algae and I don't know what it is. But no one else does either. If they did, it would be easy to control. But it does grow on every healthy reef in the sea.

One thing I do agree with you on, and is certainly correct, is that very high nutrients does not "cause" algae. If all other conditions for growth are met, it permits growth.

I can list at least a dozen things that algae critically needs to survive, including chemicals and other factors. The fact that your system uses one other than availability of N and P to limit algae growth is hardly evidence that limiting N and P doesn't work.

The trick is not knowing what algae needs to survive and thrive. Most scientists know the list, and we do not keep it a secret.

The trick is getting that limiting thing to impact all of the species of pest algae that reefers might worry about, and not any of the other organisms they desperately want to keep alive. That cuts down the available list of "solutions" quite a bit.

I agree and it may be the first thing we agree on.



That is of course also true, but the majority of fish posts seem to hone in on nitrates and phosphates. There is very little mentioning of iron, magnesium, silicon, calcium, potassium, sulfur or any trace elements like copper, zinc, cobalt or molybdenum and we don't normally test for them. All those things are needed to grow algae even if some are minute trace elements. (I am sure you know 10 more ) Nitrate and phosphate are mentioned in just about every thread of algae and they can be through the roof and algae still "may" not grow.
I doubt we can also control algae growth just with nutrients because much of it comes in food, sand, rocks or NSW. Which is why I normally say to forget nutrients and let the stuff grow. But force it to grow on something that you can remove to clean like a scrubber. You will go nuts, like most people do chasing numbers. Corals are different. If you want colorful SPS corals, high nitrates may not be the best thing, but it seems a lot of SPS corals like high nitrates as my montipora seem to prove. And this thing, whatever it is.
This hard coral grew from a tiny frag to about 7" across with my nutrients.



And duncans also seem to thrive with high nitrates. Who Knew!

The problem with low phosphate concentrations in reef tanks is that for example hair algae, Bryopsis and cyanobacteriae have access to phosphate stored in sand, gravel and rocks while the corals have not, simply because the algae and cyanobacteria are growing on these substrates. Running low phosphate concentrations will starve the corals and not the algae. Phosphate depletion is only effective on the very long term and preferably at the concentration Randy already mentioned. It is much better to control algae over the nitrogen supply. There is no N storage in the rocks or other minerals, corals have the same access to dissolved N as algae have and corals are extremely efficient in taking up N compounds like ammonia, nitrate, amino acids and urea, in fact more so than algae. In many reefs corals are phosphorus limited while at the same time algae are N limited. This means algae are less efficient in taking up N compounds.

If you run extremely low phosphate concentrations you will starve the corals, reduce competition for nitrogen compounds and trace metals and you will get more hair algae, Bryopsis and cyanobacteria than with let´s say 0.1 ppm phosphate.

 

[ihavecrabs]

This is to say that one reason for your cyano is your tank having too few corals. (The positive view on having "too many nutrients"!)

That is an amazingly positive view on Cyano!!! haha

 

[Haggisman14]

Hey everyone, just want to say thank you to everyone who has chimed in here, and really appreciate all the detailed feedback!

I also like the idea of more corals to combat cyano ;-)

I am participating in this weekends live sale from WWC...so hopefully some nice new additions will help the tank out!

I'll keep ya'll posted! Thanks again!