Algae Scrubber and refugium, same/same or different?

[theMeat]

Simply showing that there is no specific rules on calculating fuge size

Agreed. Same thing can be said for scrubber.

 

[Scrubber_steve]

Care to share how your calculations account for variables in aquariums?

I showed in post #14 the sizing method for scrubbers, & it works.

In regards to your proposed variables -
aquarium size makes no difference. Its the amount of food you feed the inhabitants that makes the difference. organic nutrients in / inorganic nutrients out.

[given the huge variation in rock]. Huge? Algae assimilates ammonia most easily & efficiently. The bacteria occupying the rock work becomes secondary.

[sand, skimmer] these 'other' forms of filtration are taken into account in the sizing guide from post #14. If on the other hand a sandbed, skimmer, etc is not utilised, then double the size of the scrubber screen. That works too, for me.

 

[Scrubber_steve]

Specific carbon, fertilizer in virtually all their additives (unless you use other method), specific sump layout/design to name a few

- specific carbon ? activated ? No such thing.

- fertilizer? you mean trace elements in their dosing products? Most people running fuges add trace elements, to try to keep the macro alive. Nothing unusual there.

-sump layout? makes no difference.

 

[theMeat]

I showed in post #14 the sizing method for scrubbers, & it works.

In regards to your proposed variables -
aquarium size makes no difference. Its the amount of food you feed the inhabitants that makes the difference. organic nutrients in / inorganic nutrients out.

[given the huge variation in rock]. Huge? Algae assimilates ammonia most easily & efficiently. The bacteria occupying the rock work becomes secondary.

[sand, skimmer] these 'other' forms of filtration are taken into account in the sizing guide from post #14. If on the other hand a sandbed, skimmer, etc is not utilised, then double the size of the scrubber screen. That works too, for me.

Not my “proposed variations”. There are simply variations. As rock and sand varies according to how dense, deep or porous they are, in terms of how much and ratio of ammonia, nitrite and nitrate they consume, so does it vary according how much you have. Same thing goes for aquarium size. If you have an amount of nitrate in a 10 gal it will raise nitrate levels twice as much as in a 20 gal. Scrubber and/or fuge will consume not only nitrate and phosphate, but ammonia and nitrite as well. The amount they are required to consume is directly related to how much can be and is consumed by the other factors/variations.

 

[theMeat]

- specific carbon ? activated ? No such thing.

- fertilizer? you mean trace elements in their dosing products? Most people running fuges add trace elements, to try to keep the macro alive. Nothing unusual there.

-sump layout? makes no difference.

Yes, specific carbon, which is not special, but specific to triton’s method. Their method also has fertilizer in it to promote macro growth, which triton method depends on. Not only for nutrient export, but they recommend not removing much macro often to promote macro decay which re-releases trace elements. Which is why they want skimmer after fuge, so fuge has first chance at nutrients. Instead of skimmer first as most not running triton method would/should desire.

 

[nick0206]

I tried both. It was fun setting up and experimenting with a refugium but a store bought scrubber is much easier if you can afford it IMO.

I also tried both methods. In my experience, a scrubber is much better.
1. Sometimes, for some reason, the haetomorpha stopped growing.
2. For the refugium you need a whole compartment in the sump, or, as in my case, a separate container.
3. More correct removal of nutrients from water. Refugium is the propagation of macro-algae, usually of the same type (haetomorpha)
Scrubber - reproduction of micro algae. Moreover, judging by the color of the algae scrubber, this is not one kind of algae, but several that depend on what is more of the nutrients in the water.
I have a Santa Monica scrubber. It takes up a lot less space than the refugium.

 

[theMeat]

Think it should also be mentioned to anyone considering a scrubber that there is a smell associated with a waterfall style scrubber. As well, when algae gets thick enough on screen there is splashing noise caused by water falling off algae higher up the screen, instead of it rolling down to bottom as when screen is cleaner

 

[theMeat]

@LondonJon
If you are considering the “Triton” method please express. Otherwise it will only complicate getting a straight answer. If there is such a thing in this hobby, lol

 

[Scrubber_steve]

Think it should also be mentioned to anyone considering a scrubber that there is a smell associated with a waterfall style scrubber. As well, when algae gets thick enough on screen there is splashing noise caused by water falling off algae higher up the screen, instead of it rolling down to bottom as when screen is cleaner

This is rubbish.
No odour, good or bad from my scrubber or any other I'm familiar with.

No splashing, falling water.

Stop making stuff up.

 

[Scrubber_steve]

I also tried both methods. In my experience, a scrubber is much better.
1. Sometimes, for some reason, the haetomorpha stopped growing.
2. For the refugium you need a whole compartment in the sump, or, as in my case, a separate container.
3. More correct removal of nutrients from water. Refugium is the propagation of macro-algae, usually of the same type (haetomorpha)
Scrubber - reproduction of micro algae. Moreover, judging by the color of the algae scrubber, this is not one kind of algae, but several that depend on what is more of the nutrients in the water.
I have a Santa Monica scrubber. It takes up a lot less space than the refugium.

Scrubber actually grow macroalgaes, often a species of Ulva.

 

[Scrubber_steve]

Not my “proposed variations”. There are simply variations. As rock and sand varies according to how dense, deep or porous they are, in terms of how much and ratio of ammonia, nitrite and nitrate they consume, so does it vary according how much you have.

These are minor variables, but, using your logic there is no way of calculating suitable protein skimmer size either.

Same thing goes for aquarium size. If you have an amount of nitrate in a 10 gal it will raise nitrate levels twice as much as in a 20 gal.

Yes, & if the same size scrubber, using the same size pump, is used on both aquariums the tank turnover rate per hour through the scrubber on the 10 gal will be twice the tank turnover rate per hour through the 20 gal.
This is why tank volume is inconsequential. Nutrients in = nutrients out!

Fixed.

 

[Colin_S]

Here is a really good video about scrubbers.. my take; i run triton, and tried time and time again to grow chaeto but it kept dying. i had massive issues with green hair algae, it alost took over the DT, and even in the refugium, the GHA would grow over the chaeto and make the sump a mess, so i new i could grow GHA with no issues lol. Triton results stated not enough iron which probably lead to the chaeto dying.
I got fed up buying chaeto and i didn't want to my chaeto/nutriant control reliant on how much iron i had in my water. I did loads of research and couldn't believe that my biggest issue GHA could actually by my saviour!! its been staring me in the face all this time, so i decided a scrubber was better for me.
I had a AI prime fuge light and a cheap grow light so i decided to make my own scrubber. it works really well and about 3 weeks in the screen is growing algae nicely. give it 3 more weeks and i'll be able to tell with my perameters if the screen works better or not, as i've had issues with phosphate averaging 0.1 and nitrate 15-25.
Algae scrubber seem easier to work/maintain, keep the sump clean from algae and better nutriant export....

 

[Scrubber_steve]

Here is a really good video about scrubbers.. my take; i run triton, and tried time and time again to grow chaeto but it kept dying. i had massive issues with green hair algae, it alost took over the DT, and even in the refugium, the GHA would grow over the chaeto and make the sump a mess, so i new i could grow GHA with no issues lol. Triton results stated not enough iron which probably lead to the chaeto dying.
I got fed up buying chaeto and i didn't want to my chaeto/nutriant control reliant on how much iron i had in my water. I did loads of research and couldn't believe that my biggest issue GHA could actually by my saviour!! its been staring me in the face all this time, so i decided a scrubber was better for me.
I had a AI prime fuge light and a cheap grow light so i decided to make my own scrubber. it works really well and about 3 weeks in the screen is growing algae nicely. give it 3 more weeks and i'll be able to tell with my perameters if the screen works better or not, as i've had issues with phosphate averaging 0.1 and nitrate 15-25.
Algae scrubber seem easier to work/maintain, keep the sump clean from algae and better nutriant export....

This is an advantage of a scrubber over a refugium. What grows on a scrubber screen is self seeded - the algae spores are already in the system, & naturally take advantage of the optimum environment the scrubber provides. Whereas, conditions may not be suitable when trying to grow an algae introduced into the system. This may be why so many people struggle to keep chaeto alive?

 

[Colin_S]

it's frustrating when people grow chaeto like crazy using cheaplights and harvest it constantly, and you're struggling to keep it alive. throwing money at it buying top end lights, and constantly buying chaeto.. everything i've read chaeto needs grow light, iron and irodine, which like you said, if you don't have it in the water, the chaeto quickly dies

 

[daftwazzock]

I can tell you that for a fudge chaeto is typically used, but many people struggle to keep it alive, no matter what they do.

I'm not a skilled reefer by any means, however the chaeto in my fuge has already overflowed twice and I don't put a lot of nutrients in my tank. Or maybe I do...

I'm using two Aquael Leddy 6w lights as well, nothing too expensive or fancy.

 

[Scrubber_steve]

I'm not a skilled reefer by any means, however the chaeto in my fuge has already overflowed twice and I don't put a lot of nutrients in my tank. Or maybe I do...

I'm using two Aquael Leddy 6w lights as well, nothing too expensive or fancy.

Yes it grows great for some people for sure. I hope it keeps growing well for you. Some have initial good growth, but then, for no apparent reason it dies?

 

[atoll]

Its hard to size a scrubber. Typically if nutrients drop too low you regulate that by cutting the photo period. If you have higher nutrient levels and the lights are on almost all the time then you might need to add another to your system.

Hmmm been running ATSs for years never had those issues nor do any of my friends who run them.

 

[Silent]

Hmmm been running ATSs for years never had those issues nor do any of my friends who run them.

What issues?
If you are talking about nutrients being too low, think about it the way you would think about dosing. If your alk is too high reduce alk dosing amount. If your nutrients get lower than the level you would like then reduce the photoperiod of the ATS.

 

[Shinister]

For me, chaeto worked slowly but I hated having bits and pieces of it floating around after pruning it. I tried a chaeto reactor and coralline started growing on the walls so I knew eventually I had to break down the whole thing and give it a vinegar bath down the road. I've been using an ATS for the last 8-9 months and its much more effective at nutrient reduction. It takes a few weeks for the screen to seed but it will take off and your nutrients will go down. I had the lights on it running 20-24 hours in the beginning during seeding. Currently im at 12 hours photoperiod to keep no3 at 2.5-5ppm. Phosphates have been 0-0.3 for several months.

 

[Silent]

A scrubber is precisely sized by screen surface area to the amount fed to the tank. The length of the photo period is used to set NO3at the level you want to maintain it at

I think "precisely sized" is a stretch. I have heard of the vague sizing/cube rule you are referring to but there are so many variables with our systems/setups it is more like a guideline.