Algae Scrubber and refugium, same/same or different?

[Scrubber_steve]

Most set ups I’ve seen have a pump from sump feeding ats. Simply because it’s easier, and most tanks have way too much return flow for what’s recommended for their ats, even if ats is oversized. Sure you could run a split.

Nothing negative about running an ATS on a dedicated pump, just like a skimmer, a bio pellet reactor, etc.
The diagram I posted shows that when the scrubber is fed from the display overflow a tank's turnover rate can just be set to match the scrubbers flow specs. Why have a higher tank turn over rate than what the scrubber needs? No reason for that. Using a variable speed pump makes this easy. Or you can split & run a 2nd feed to a gravity fed GAC reactor, of filter material, for example as I have done.

Water falling down in open air is part of what makes an ats so powerful, because nitrogen leaves the water at the surface. This will also cause more evap. Simple concept.

And the diagram I posted shows that there is relatively no open area in the sump from where evaporated water can escape the system. It condenses on the inner surfaces of the sump unit & drips back in to the sump water.

 

[S2G]

Plus having to clean it once a week, likely running another pump, less safe breeding space for pods, as well as more evaporation.

Copepods or amphipods?

 

[Hyde2406]

Amphipods are what I see, I try and save the ones I can

 

[Scrubber_steve]

Copepods or amphipods?

neither

 

[S2G]

Most set ups I’ve seen have a pump from sump feeding ats. Simply because it’s easier, and most tanks have way too much return flow for what’s recommended for their ats, even if ats is oversized. Sure you could run a split.
I and many I know do not run a sock because who wants to clean it every few days, and if I did I certainly would not want to clean ats screen along with it. I run a low flow sump where debris has a chance to settle out and get consumed. No need for socks or carbon, water is clear.
Water falling down in open air is part of what makes an ats so powerful, because nitrogen leaves the water at the surface. This will also cause more evap. Simple concept.

No offense, but most of your statements have been untrue. It's only smelly, loud, etc if you dont set it up incorrectly. Same as your fuge, sump, whatever.

This isn't an either/or type of thing. They're both effective ways of nutrient control. Just like vodka and gfo.

 

[sp1187]

I find when I go to clean my scrubber, (it's an up flow black box) it is filled with pods they love it

SURF4X
easy cleaning. pod hotel. my lamark, combtooth blenny,and foxface love the produce.

DT is 150G. with sump 160g total water in the system.

feeding daily:
3 cubes, 1/4 tsp pellets, 1 tsp fish eggs.

air pump needed.

 

[theMeat]

No offense, but most of your statements have been untrue. It's only smelly, loud, etc if you dont set it up incorrectly. Same as your fuge, sump, whatever.

This isn't an either/or type of thing. They're both effective ways of nutrient control. Just like vodka and gfo.

No offense taken. Said it was better at nutrient export in a smaller space. Is that untrue?

 

[Scott Campbell]

I have a 20 gallon tank next to and connected to my 150 gallon main tank. There is probably only 15 gallons of water in the tank - so roughly 10% of the volume of my main tank. An overflow sends the water back to the main sump. I started out growing exclusively Chaeto and other macroalgae but over the years I have tossed in broken pieces of coral as a result of my clumsiness in the main tank. The coral has taken off. The tank also houses a mangrove plant. The Chaeto grows in a solid mass. There is no movement in the Chaeto mass. But it grows extremely fast and is very thick and dark green. So fast that I can pull out a couple pints of Chaeto each week. I give the Chaeto to my LFS. The Chaeto growth now occurs in about 2-3 gallons of water space. I also grow a calcareous algae which is quite beautiful and several undesirable turf algae which I have to dispose of. There is a red light above the Chaeto (turned off in the picture) which greatly helps the growth.

I have tried out various refugium and turf scrubber designs over the last 30+ years. I have come to prefer a refugium for several reasons:

1. I can harvest other more valuable biomass out of a refugium. In my current refugium I grow pipe organ coral, several types of digitata and plating montipora corals, xenia and bird nest coral. They don't grow quite as fast as macroalgae but they grow faster than one might expect. They are all good for export.
2. Corals and Chaeto are in demand and can be sold.
3. A refugium can support a more diverse group of microfauna - notably bristle worms, tube worms, flat worms, mysid shrimp and sponges as well as copepods and amphipods. Since my fish feed on all these organisms I am happy to have a safe place for them to reproduce.
4. I can grow a mangrove in a refugium.
5. It gives me a quick place to toss a coral (or even a fish) in an emergency.
6. It is more attractive than a turf scrubber. I often spend as much time looking at the refugium as the main tank.
7. It takes up less space than people expect. You can grow a lot of macroalgae in a very small area.
8. It allows for a wider variety of biomass to be grown as export - which I believe helps keep the tank healthier. My issue with a turf scrubber was the intense and rapid growth of a rather specific type of algae. Which I felt had the potential to strip the tank of key nutrients. That may not be true. But it was a concern. I don't have that worry with my refugium.
9. It's just more fun.

Scott

 

[theMeat]

Nice tank Scott

 

[atoll]

Plus having to clean it once a week, likely running another pump, less safe breeding space for pods, as well as more evaporation.

Yeah if you cant spare 5mins a week then an ATS is not for you. Evaporation is good allows my calc reactor to get more calc in not that the evaporation is much more in an enclosed ATS box. I will give you the less breeding space for pods as I have said in a previous post but as I breed pods anyway not real loss and I can breed more than in a fuge would supply my tank.from the return pump. BTW I could just as easily have fed my ATS from my return pump as also said before I just prefer to run a seperate one to feed it, it gives me isolation from the return pump and better controllability
Many people run their ATS as you know so no big deal.

 

[atoll]

I have a 20 gallon tank next to and connected to my 150 gallon main tank. There is probably only 15 gallons of water in the tank - so roughly 10% of the volume of my main tank. An overflow sends the water back to the main sump. I started out growing exclusively Chaeto and other macroalgae but over the years I have tossed in broken pieces of coral as a result of my clumsiness in the main tank. The coral has taken off. The tank also houses a mangrove plant. The Chaeto grows in a solid mass. There is no movement in the Chaeto mass. But it grows extremely fast and is very thick and dark green. So fast that I can pull out a couple pints of Chaeto each week. I give the Chaeto to my LFS. The Chaeto growth now occurs in about 2-3 gallons of water space. I also grow a calcareous algae which is quite beautiful and several undesirable turf algae which I have to dispose of. There is a red light above the Chaeto (turned off in the picture) which greatly helps the growth.

I have tried out various refugium and turf scrubber designs over the last 30+ years. I have come to prefer a refugium for several reasons:

1. I can harvest other more valuable biomass out of a refugium. In my current refugium I grow pipe organ coral, several types of digitata and plating montipora corals, xenia and bird nest coral. They don't grow quite as fast as macroalgae but they grow faster than one might expect. They are all good for export.
2. Corals and Chaeto are in demand and can be sold.
3. A refugium can support a more diverse group of microfauna - notably bristle worms, tube worms, flat worms, mysid shrimp and sponges as well as copepods and amphipods. Since my fish feed on all these organisms I am happy to have a safe place for them to reproduce.
4. I can grow a mangrove in a refugium.
5. It gives me a quick place to toss a coral (or even a fish) in an emergency.
6. It is more attractive than a turf scrubber. I often spend as much time looking at the refugium as the main tank.
7. It takes up less space than people expect. You can grow a lot of macroalgae in a very small area.
8. It allows for a wider variety of biomass to be grown as export - which I believe helps keep the tank healthier. My issue with a turf scrubber was the intense and rapid growth of a rather specific type of algae. Which I felt had the potential to strip the tank of key nutrients. That may not be true. But it was a concern. I don't have that worry with my refugium.
9. It's just more fun.

Scott

Very nice.
I can also have most of those things if I wish in my sump apart from the fact I wont grow cheato in it. I can put frags in it for instance if I light it but prefer to grow them on a rack on the back of the DT. I have more space given my ATS is on the sump not in it.
I appreciate your choice and see why you prefer a fuge.
My previous tank Run on my ATS I had to break down when I moved house. My new one started from scratch is only a few months old, long way to go now.
Just goes to show there is more than one way to run a reef tank successfully.

 

[The cats wrasse]

Algae Scrubber and refugium.

Do they essential do the same job?

What’s the advantage / disadvantage of each?

If you have the space and the budget, would you have both?

What should the flow be in a refugium?

I always thought it should be low, but have seen some videos where the Cheto is in a ball and rotating quite fast. What’s the benefit/reason for doing it this way?

Depends on your goal but chaeto is tumbled so it gets consistent light ...as for flow in refugiums its anyone's guess some people will say 1 thing others will say another but I do know anaerobic bacteria that thrives on nutrients only grows in low flow areas of the tank

 

[Maxx]

Algae Scrubber and refugium.

Do they essential do the same job?

What’s the advantage / disadvantage of each?

If you have the space and the budget, would you have both?

What should the flow be in a refugium?

I always thought it should be low, but have seen some videos where the Cheto is in a ball and rotating quite fast. What’s the benefit/reason for doing it this way?

@LondonJon
What is YOUR main goal of running either an ATS or a Fuge?
If it is nutrient export: Which ever one you want, both will do it quite well.
If it is to increase the pH of your tank: I would steer you towards a refugium vs an ATS because a traditional waterfall style ATS, (vs an upflow ATS), the algae will be pulling CO2 from the ambient air of the room the tank is in vs solely from the tank water. Therefore, your pH effects shouldnt be as pronounced.
If it's to grow multitudes of pods: I would lean more towards refugium vs ATS, but according to many here, ATS grows pods quite well, so that is probably a personal preference thing.
If space is at a premium: I would steer to you towards an ATS as I feel they are much more compact than refugiums but just as effective at nutrient export.

I've used a Pax Bellum chaeto reactor before and it worked quite well. I sold it when I broke down my tank and got out of the hobby a few years ago.

I will start off using a chaeto fuge at first and if that doesnt work out for me, I will try an ATS.
I will be using this on a 40 breeder, (55 gallons total volume) and will primarily using it to increase pH and nutrient export.

 

[The cats wrasse]

@LondonJon
What is YOUR main goal of running either an ATS or a Fuge?
If it is nutrient export: Which ever one you want, both will do it quite well.
If it is to increase the pH of your tank: I would steer you towards a refugium vs an ATS because a traditional waterfall style ATS, (vs an upflow ATS), the algae will be pulling CO2 from the ambient air of the room the tank is in vs solely from the tank water. Therefore, your pH effects shouldnt be as pronounced.
If it's to grow multitudes of pods: I would lean more towards refugium vs ATS, but according to many here, ATS grows pods quite well, so that is probably a personal preference thing.
If space is at a premium: I would steer to you towards an ATS as I feel they are much more compact than refugiums but just as effective at nutrient export.

I've used a Pax Bellum chaeto reactor before and it worked quite well. I sold it when I broke down my tank and got out of the hobby a few years ago.

I will start off using a chaeto fuge at first and if that doesnt work out for me, I will try an ATS.
I will be using this on a 40 breeder, (55 gallons total volume) and will primarily using it to increase pH and nutrient export.

well said

 

[Scrubber_steve]

@LondonJon
If it is to increase the pH of your tank: I would steer you towards a refugium vs an ATS because a traditional waterfall style ATS, (vs an upflow ATS), the algae will be pulling CO2 from the ambient air of the room the tank is in vs solely from the tank water. Therefore, your pH effects shouldnt be as pronounced.

Hi Maxx;
I've heard this suggestion before, & question its validity, because I have witnessed the positive effect my scrubber has had on the pH of my aquarium water.

OK, so, the algae on the screen is completely & continuously covered in a film of moving water, 1 to 3 mm thick.
So can you tell me what is the mechanism where-by the algae can reject utilising the CO2 that is in contact with its surface, & instead utilises CO2 from the air that it is not in contact with ?

cheers

 

[Maxx]

Hi Maxx;
I've heard this suggestion before, & question its validity, because I have witnessed the positive effect my scrubber has had on the pH of my aquarium water.

OK, so, the algae on the screen is completely & continuously covered in a film of moving water, 1 to 3 mm thick.
So can you tell me what is the mechanism where-by the algae can reject utilising the CO2 that is in contact with its surface, & instead utilises CO2 from the air that it is not in contact with ?

cheers

Scrubber Steve,
As you described things...I dont see how it can.
From what I have seen in the few observations I've had of ATS being used...the algae isnt completely covered in water. It is getting a substantial amount of water over it, but not all of it is covered all the time.

Admittedly, I dont have much experience with ATS, (I dont sell them or refugiums ) so I'm primarily going on what I've observed and what I've been told by people who have used them.

Having said that, if you're not experiencing a difference in pH between running a scrubber vs running a fuge...by all means, continue running a scrubber. I have nothing against them, and would prefer to be able to use one for my system just due to space constraints. However, my simple set up will be in the basement of my house where CO2 collects and I need to pay mitigate that. If a scrubber will do that for me, I'm all for it.
I know a 10 gallon fuge will adjust my pH in the direction I want, I dont know that the ATS will.

My purpose for posting in this thread was less about being confrontational, (I hope I didnt come off that way) and more pointing out that both ATS and Refugiums do several things besides grow algae, and Londonjon should choose whichever one best suits his needs.

If you dont mind, could you post pics of your current tank and ATS?

 

[Scrubber_steve]

My purpose for posting in this thread was less about being confrontational, (I hope I didnt come off that way)

No, not at all Maxx.

I like scrubbers & fuges.
I just pointed out something I believe to be incorrect.

As you described things...I dont see how it can.
From what I have seen in the few observations I've had of ATS being used...the algae isnt completely covered in water. It is getting a substantial amount of water over it, but not all of it is covered all the time.

Even an ordinarily designed & maintained scrubber will completely & continuously immerse all the algae in water.
Its easy to tell when this is the case ...... The algae will be wet. Only dry algae contacts the atmosphere directly, & If this is the case no photosynthesis will be occurring & no CO2 will be assimilated from the ambient air.

 

[atoll]

We should also remember most fuge are the same and only the size really sets them apart. OK so people use different lights but they are very similar in all respects. With scrubbers there are many different types and not all are good designs, some being more efficent, compact and easy to maintain than others. I do like both ATSs and fuges but in particular waterfall type ATSs and yes I have had floating upward scrubbers HOBs, reactors and waterfall ATSs. I have even made my own Sumps with fuges and ATS's. I have had fuge's firstly growing Caulerpa later Cheato. I found to work well a fuge needs to be quite a good size to accomplish what a compact waterfall scrubber can. My current ATS is a Turbo Scrubber which I consider the best I have had it also sits on the top rim of my sump freeing up room where a fuge would go.
Fact is some will prefer an ATS while others a fuge and it comes down to personal choice both as has been said will do a good job of keeping nuitrents in check which I believe is the number one reason most people use them for. Pods and pH being secondary factors to nuitrent export for many, good extras though they may be.
There will always be pluses and minuses for people to consider. What one person may consider a put off another may consider it no big deal and certainly not a deal breaker for one particular type. You pays your money and takes your pick after all.

 

[atoll]

I made a mistake a couple of posts. I stated I maintain my waterfall ATS in around 5 minutes. I have just done a quick video and timed how long it took me 3mins 55 seconds.

 

[theMeat]

Thanx for post atol. Good stuff. Hard to tell if any noise with that overflow