Algae Scrubber and refugium, same/same or different?

[atoll]

Plenty of people run their fuges 24/7 on a permanent basis. Give it a go untill NO3 levels come down.
Don't forget your scrubber is dealing with the daily feedings of the tank, which is what its designed to do. Your adding on the extra task of reducing high levels of nitrate already in the system.

What are these "Ultra LEDs" you added to your scrubber?

Re Ultra LEDs. To be honest am not sure as I didn't feel confident enough to replace all the LEDs myself. However, I have a good friend also in the hobby who refurbed my lighting replacing all the LEDs and add 4 more to each side. He built his own scrubber using the same LEDs. I will try and find out more from him and let you know.

 

[atoll]

Just spoken to my mate who refurbed my scrubber lights. Here is a link to the company he gets them from here in the UK.

Future Eden supplier of premium LED components, Drivers and Heatsinks

The UK's best supplier of High Power brand name LEDs, LED drivers, heat sinks and electrical components. Perfect for homemade grow lights, aquarium DIY LED lighting and industrial use.

futureeden.co.uk

 

[atoll]

Specifically these.

3W Ultraviolet UV LED (380-390nm EPILED)

3W Ultraviolet UV High Power LED - 380nm to 390nm - Perfect for homemade Actinic reef lighting - 3 Year Warranty - UK stock with next day delivery

futureeden.co.uk

And these.

Deep Red LED (EPILED 640-660nm) - 800mA

800mA High Luminance Deep Red LED - 660nm wavelength perfect for flowering LED Grow lights - Low heat and high efficiency - 3 year Warranty - UK stock

futureeden.co.uk

Not sure why he called them Ultra though.

 

[Scrubber_steve]

Specifically these.

3W Ultraviolet UV LED (380-390nm EPILED)

3W Ultraviolet UV High Power LED - 380nm to 390nm - Perfect for homemade Actinic reef lighting - 3 Year Warranty - UK stock with next day delivery

futureeden.co.uk

And these.

Deep Red LED (EPILED 640-660nm) - 800mA

800mA High Luminance Deep Red LED - 660nm wavelength perfect for flowering LED Grow lights - Low heat and high efficiency - 3 year Warranty - UK stock

futureeden.co.uk

Not sure why he called them Ultra though.

cool. these are what I use

660nm

 

[atoll]

cool. these are what I use

660nm

Well if results are anything to go by I can't believe how much Ulva my scrubber now grows in just 4 days and that just damp.

 

[theMeat]

With my fuge I take out two 5 gal buckets filled with mostly cheato every few months. Usually take out 15 gals of tank water with it to dump cheeto in and give a shake to get out hundreds, maybe thousands of helpful critters that get dumped back into fuge.

 

[Scrubber_steve]

With my fuge I take out two 5 gal buckets filled with mostly cheato every few months. Usually take out 15 gals of tank water with it to dump cheeto in and give a shake to get out hundreds, maybe thousands of helpful critters that get dumped back into fuge.

wow, that's a lot of chaeto.

Can I ask, what do you believe is the helpful task(s) that critters perform?

And how is having a lot of them advantageous to this scenario

cheers

 

[theMeat]

wow, that's a lot of chaeto.

Can I ask, what do you believe is the helpful task(s) that critters perform?

And how is having a lot of them advantageous to this scenario

cheers

Cheers
Well for starters they eat things which then break down smaller and faster. They are a natural food source to my livestock, which is especially helpful when away from home.
They help keep sand bed mixed, clean rock work. They are a good indicator as to tank health. As an example if I see bristle worm population get bigger it’s likely because I’m feeding too much, Also think live gut in diet is important to fish health and immunity.
The best part is the completely different little eco system going on the n there. N 2gether now wha wha

 

[Scrubber_steve]

Don’t take this personally Meat, but I’ll play the devil’s advocate here & make the case that critters are no more than an interesting feature - something else to gaze upon, are inevitable in an aquarium to a degree, but an unnecessary aspect of reef keeping.
You may agree?

Well for starters they eat things which then break down smaller and faster.

They help keep sand bed mixed, clean rock work.

They eat detritus, including poop. But the truth being they just turn everything they eat into poop. This poop is added to a sand bed. The sand beds their toilet. The only way to remove detritus-DOC from the aquarium is via mechanical filtration, skimming, GAC, & water changes.

The devil says they are completely unnecessary for keeping a tank clean.

They are a good indicator as to tank health.

Their only in a system if they are introduced somehow, like dinos, ick, etc is. This cannot be a sign of aquarium health. The devil says a tank can exist very well without them.

They are a natural food source to my livestock, which is especially helpful when away from home.

If they reproduced at a speed to where no food needed to be added to the aquarium this would be a real positive. But even in a huge system with very few small fish, this scenario would still be difficult, if not impossible long term, to achieve. So manually feeding is inevitable.
The devil says, having critters can be another source of food, but intentionally adding them to a system for food is completely unnecessary

The best part is the complete different little eco system going on the n there.

This is the interesting part visually. But the devil says, again, these little ecosystems are unnecessary.

cheers

 

[theMeat]

yes mr devil. I feed my fish. I feed them as much as possible and with the freshest I can get. There is no fresher than grown in tank. Think the devil has a brain and would see the benefits of a fuge over ats. Or does he only see the benefits of scrubber?
Like simple set and forget. I feed my fish clean the glass and skimmer cup. A few times a year I tend to the fuge.
If I see macro or starfish or bristle worm population grow I know I’m feeding too much therefore them. This is confirmed when e feed less and population goes down. Works out good that I don’t have to test much because I’d rather set and forget and watch nature do it’s thing and listen to what it shows me. One of the joys of this hobby for me

 

[Scrubber_steve]

yes mr devil. I feed my fish. I feed them as much as possible and with the freshest I can get. There is no fresher than grown in tank.

Mr devil wasn't knocking critters as food. Mr devil said "intentionally adding them to a system for food is completely unnecessary". There are excellent sources of food besides critters, says Mr devil.

Think the devil has a brain and would see the benefits of a fuge over ats.

Oh, you're aligning critters with fuges. Mr devil wasn't. Is this why you're taking a defensive stance?
Critters are in displays, fuge or no fuge.

Or does he only see the benefits of scrubber?

My devil likes scrubbers, fuges, or another form of effective algae filtration, unlike you.
Mr devil did say to you "don't take the post personally".

 

[S2G]

....

 

[theMeat]

Mr devil wasn't knocking critters as food. Mr devil said "intentionally adding them to a system for food is completely unnecessary". There are excellent sources of food besides critters, says Mr devil.


Oh, you're aligning critters with fuges. Mr devil wasn't. Is this why you're taking a defensive stance?
Critters are in displays, fuge or no fuge.


My devil likes scrubbers, fuges, or another form of effective algae filtration, unlike you.
Mr devil did say to you "don't take the post personally".

Lol not getting defensive, and yes your latest correspondence with me started with ‘don’t take this personal but...”
Think a scrubber can grow more/take more nutrients in less space. Like a fuge on steroids, but at a cost.
Have no problem adding critters which would happen anyway unless you sterilize everything before putting it on your tank.
Have found what I like and seems to work. For 7 years on this tank without a meaningful water change.
I also like chocolate

 

[Maxx]

This is a very common occurrence during the night cycle on a tank without algae filtration, & why pH falls - biological processes of photosynthesis are the opposite when light isn't provided. Photosynthesising organisms in the display - corals, algae, cyano, dinos, diatoms, respire carbon dioxide, along with fish & other organisms.


When ambient air co2 is higher than fresh air levels a skimmer for sure increases the co2 content of water because the co2 is being aggressively forced into the water via bubbles. The interaction via the air-water interface by a scrubber however is passive, & during photosynthesis what ever level of co2 does cross over into the water is used by the algae, as I've already pointed out.

It seems you have made up your mind on this subject, so I'll leave it at that.

Steve,
I havent made up my mind at all.
I'm searching for answers, regardless of what "I" (or anyone else) want the answers to be.

I've already stated several times in this thread that I'm hoping an ATS fills my needs. An ATS would better suit my space requirements than a chaeto refugium would. The cost between the two will be about the same, (commercial ATS vs purchasing refugium light such as the Kessil H380), but the fuge would take up more space.

I have two requirements: NO3/PO4 reduction and pH bump. And I'm not even sure if the two are actually compatible for my planned system due to size.

I'm going to have a total system volume of 60 gallons or under, with as heavy a bioload as I can manage (space) in order to increase PO4/NO3 availability.

With my system being in the basement, and the fact that I know CO2 collects there, I have to be mindful of handling it.
I also have to be mindful of whatever system I use, (ATS or Chaeto fuge) being more than capable of stripping NO3/PO4 from the water to unhealthy levels to the point that I may not be able to run it daily as I'd like.

So, like everything else in this hobby, it's a juggling act.
To that end, I'm searching for answers and wanting to find out more.
I've never used an ATS, but I'm ignorant of them, nor am I against using one, if it turns out to be the best thing for my system.

I was rather hoping you'd continue the discussion as you appear to be quite knowledgeable about ATS. I'm not married to one method or another, I can be swayed. But I'm unwilling to jump off a cliff based on the one or two posts by someone on the internet without sufficient information/science to back it up.

If you chose to leave the conversation, that's entirely up to you. I'll continue my search elsewhere, and eventually find the answers I'm looking for.

For example...How much contact time does the algae in the ATS need in order to pull CO2 from it? Can you definitively state, (and cite) that the algae is only using CO2 from the water and not the ambient air?
C'mon man, convince me?
I want to use an ATS, but I just need more info!

 

[Maxx]

Specifically these.

3W Ultraviolet UV LED (380-390nm EPILED)

3W Ultraviolet UV High Power LED - 380nm to 390nm - Perfect for homemade Actinic reef lighting - 3 Year Warranty - UK stock with next day delivery

futureeden.co.uk

And these.

Deep Red LED (EPILED 640-660nm) - 800mA

800mA High Luminance Deep Red LED - 660nm wavelength perfect for flowering LED Grow lights - Low heat and high efficiency - 3 year Warranty - UK stock

futureeden.co.uk

Not sure why he called them Ultra though.

Interesting that your buddy added the UV spectrum LEDS....the 660 wavelength I completely understand.
But I wonder what benefit the near UV spectrum is giving?

 

[Scrubber_steve]

Steve,
I havent made up my mind at all.
I'm searching for answers, regardless of what "I" (or anyone else) want the answers to be.

Max, you are not asking, but seemingly arguing against whatever i put forward. That's fine, but I have said all I can, & I'm not going round in circles. I suggest getting the opinions from others until you are happy with the answers you recieve.
Good luck with it
Cheers.

 

[atoll]

Interesting that your buddy added the UV spectrum LEDS....the 660 wavelength I completely understand.
But I wonder what benefit the near UV spectrum is giving?

Sorry I cant answer that one and am not sure anybody can scientifically unless they have the means and in depth knowledge.
Perhaps as Ulva in nature is found close to the surface then it will get a fair amount of UV that the reds are not providing that much of if at all. If I just had all reds would the growth be just as good or the UVs replaced with Royal blues, who knows.

 

[S2G]

UV doesnt matter. If your trying to perfect the ats then maybe but they've been ru. Without uv forever.

This has been overcomplicated to the extreme. Get an ats for reduction in no3/po4. Find a light cycle that maintains your levels you want. Boom done. You need proper flow and adequate watts of 660nm deep red it's really that simple.

Ph bump is another issue. Run your skimmer air outside or look into a co2 scrubber.

Fresh Air and pH

It has been stressed time and time again the importance of refreshing the house air with outside air to help raise a tank's pH, especially for tanks which are struggling with low pH. A lot of people also run airlines from their skimmers to the outside just to reap the benefit. More on the...

www.reef2reef.com

.

CO2 Scrubber Testing

This is a carry-over from this thread.. https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/an-easy-way-to-increase-your-tanks-ph-with-a-co2-scrubber.57609/page-12 These tests are geared towards specifically measuring CO2 inlet and outlet values and the efficiency of differing methods in scrubbing CO2 via a...

www.reef2reef.com

Ats is just like a fuge. A crazy simple way to remove nutrients. We're trying to do calculus and all we need is basic math

 

[Scharlork]

ATS and Cryptic Zone is the best for my tank

 

[theMeat]

Have a hard time understanding how a scrubber doesn’t help with ph. I mean if water is falling through air in a thin film I struggle with how that wouldn’t increase ph. Maybe the scrubber being closed tight enough to stop noise it also stops effective fresh air exchange, idk