Algae with phosphates at 0

revhtree · Feb 22, 2016

My first thread to you @Randy Holmes-Farley!

I am having some red slime and some new hair algae starting to form. The cyano is kinda normal for me but I'm starting to get a little hair algae here and there. I also have had an outbreak of bubble algae.

That being said I did a check and I am showing no detectable phosphates via my salifert kit. Also no nitrates.

Thank you!

Randy Holmes-Farley · Feb 22, 2016

Cyanobacteria (red slime) may be responding as much or more to organics in the water than the inorganic nutrients. Unlike green algae, many species of cyano thrive on organic matter in the water. It could also get N and P from organic compounds, if it is consuming a lot. More skimming, GAC, and various organic binders like Purigen may help.

Finally, some types of cyano will get nitrogen from the N2 in the air/water, and do not need fixed nitrogen (ammonia/nitrate/etc.). I do not know if that actually happens in reef tanks where ammonia is likely to be available even if nitrate is not, but it is possible.

Valonia (bubble algae) seems to be a type of algae that is hard to eradicate by nutrients alone. There's no inherent reason this "should" be possible anyway, since corals have the same sorts of needs for N and P, but it just turns out that some forms (like green hair algae) can often be beat with low nutrients before corals suffer, but that valonia often cannot.

There is also the issue that the readings on a kit do not really say much about whether there is phosphate or ammonia/nitrate fluxing through the system, from fish excretions to whatever export you use (GFO, ATS, macroalgae, etc.). The algae are just still able to grab out some of the N and P as it goes by, even at low levels, and intercepting it faster with something like GFO can help, as long as nutrients do not get so low that creatures you care about suffer.

In many cases, herbivores are the best way, perhaps coupled with low nutrients to reduce the growth of the problem algae between bites by the fish/crab/slug/whatever.

FWIW, some cyano and algae (usually caulerpa for me, but also some valonia in my refugium) is also normal for me.

Cory · Feb 22, 2016

When i had a bb system, cyano always grew where there were piles of dirt. Especially in the tank, there was a small cheato ball that collected dirt, and cyano would cover the chaeto. When i removed the dirt trapped in the chaeto, the cyano disspeared.

In my sand system, cyano grows in the corners where dirt settles.

brandon429 · Feb 23, 2016

Rev the valonia is serious enough that we lose some tanks to it with any form of hesitation after visual detection. Some make it. A thread exists in the macros forum showing many tanks beyond repair.

I recently eradicated it from my bowl in good detail by acting immediately with peroxide. Am aware not everyone wants to go that route, but it's unstoppable if it wants to be (finds the right niche in your tank)

We didn't dump peroxide into the tank, we just used it directly on the valonia after the section had already been cleaned off

Cory · Feb 24, 2016

Fwiw this is not my tank, but is what happened to it after using an ats:

mysterybox · Feb 25, 2016

I live not too far from you in Flowery Branch, GA, btw...anyway...get a Hanna Ultra Low Phosphorus kit or the Elos Professional Phosphate low range kit are better suited for phosphate. Cyno can be just unstoppable even with low nutrients as already stated, and for years I used chemi-cleam about twice a year (directions to the "T"), albeit it has been about 3-4 years now with no need. Do more larger and more frequent water changes and change GFO & Carbon more often which will get rid of hair algae. You can dose outside the tank any rock removable with H2O2 for ten minutes, or with all powerheads off in your tank, you can carefully syringe 3% hydroxide on some areas of hair algae for ten minutes as long as you don't dose more than 30 ml per 100 gallons per few hours...just rip the bubble algae out, I did..it never spread like everyone said it would, and it's been 8 years...

acidtablockshifty · Mar 9, 2016

I have no science to back this up, and I think randy may have said there is no science to back this up, but after I put an air pump and two air stones in my sump/fuge 24h a day air fed from outside, I have zero cyano in my fuge where before I had mats growing up the walls (never had much in display). Whether or not it is because of added flow from the water movement, or the fact that at some point after i cleaned the fuge out totally so there was just none in the system, or if slightly elevating dissolved oxygen helped. The fuge used to be a four walled swamp pit, now its just four glass walls.. while one plastic. I do have some bubble algae few bubbles here and there, and the tank has a small turf scrubber, but it had that always and I swear I had a rock in the fuge so covered in turf algae that you would think it was a chia pet (kinda wished i saved that one).
If you do add air stones drill some holes in a short section of like 3/4 pvc pipe and slide the air stones into it, use a zip tie to keep the stone in the pipe to keep light from getting to them, if you don't they'll be done in like a week if you do they will last a really long time.
Or reverse all of that and build a fuge with low flow and very little water movement so you can force it all to grow there
Also keep in mind i have my own believe that skimmers add little dissolved oxygen to the system, if they added so much people wouldn't have to run open tops and massive surface tension movement, then again i also don't feel like the air stones add that much either, the two combine to be just enough.
I may also be combating the fact that my tank is mostly glass topped and runs full siphon so I probably have lower oxygen then other systems that splish splash

Randy Holmes-Farley · Mar 10, 2016

acidtablockshifty said:
I have no science to back this up, and I think randy may have said there is no science to back this up, but after I put an air pump and two air stones in my sump/fuge 24h a day air fed from outside, I have zero cyano in my fuge where before I had mats growing up the walls (never had much in display). Whether or not it is because of added flow from the water movement, or the fact that at some point after i cleaned the fuge out totally so there was just none in the system, or if slightly elevating dissolved oxygen helped. The fuge used to be a four walled swamp pit, now its just four glass walls.. while one plastic. I do have some bubble algae few bubbles here and there, and the tank has a small turf scrubber, but it had that always and I swear I had a rock in the fuge so covered in turf algae that you would think it was a chia pet (kinda wished i saved that one).
If you do add air stones drill some holes in a short section of like 3/4 pvc pipe and slide the air stones into it, use a zip tie to keep the stone in the pipe to keep light from getting to them, if you don't they'll be done in like a week if you do they will last a really long time.
Or reverse all of that and build a fuge with low flow and very little water movement so you can force it all to grow there
Also keep in mind i have my own believe that skimmers add little dissolved oxygen to the system, if they added so much people wouldn't have to run open tops and massive surface tension movement, then again i also don't feel like the air stones add that much either, the two combine to be just enough.
I may also be combating the fact that my tank is mostly glass topped and runs full siphon so I probably have lower oxygen then other systems that splish splash

I would speculate that this effect is from the flow.

TheEngineer · Mar 10, 2016

Have you considered an algae turf scrubber? I personally haven't used one, but the theory seems solid to me. If you have nutrients in your tank that are causing algae to grow, create a place for them to grow really well, but that you control. It seems logical to me (whether or not it is actually logical is a different story) that giving algae a place to grow and thrive will outcompete "opportunistic" algae in the DT. It might take some time, but certainly worth it.

I don't think chaeto or mangroves work well enough to be worthwhile. Some of the more aggressive macros like caulerpa are just not worth the risk IMO. One spore takes root and there goes your entire DT. I say embrace the algae and grow it where it is out of sight.

Oceansize · Mar 10, 2016

FWIW, I had mats of cyano that completely disappeared within three days after adding an in-line UV lamp. It just melted away. I've never seen such a profound improvement in such a short amount of time. I don't know if correlation and causality are the same in this case, but it certainly seems like it.

Kungpaoshizi · Mar 10, 2016

I would guess if you're testing 0 on both, it's the algae using it up.. Given metabolism can adjust to the nutrient levels, I know from personal experience I've seen the same kind of scenario.