No need to dose at the moment, nothing in there that requires it. Try kalkwasser in your top off water until your needs grow. Will help with pH. Then when you can grow pink algae you may be ready to add lps/sps.
Alk/Calc stabilization
- Thread starter ctopherl
- Start date
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All good advice here so I won't add much more. Bottom line is that right now your tank is new and in the uglies, so your only focus should be keeping the fish happy, and nutrients in the lower range if possible (to help get you out of the uglies).
Params to focus on for next few months:
-Temp
-Salinity
-Nitrate (and to some degree phosphate, but even this you can pay less attention to for now).
I would also consider doubling your water change schedule. This will help stabilize things for you, and you don't have to worry about corals right now, it's the fish you need to keep happy.
Tips:
-Make sure your change water is exactly right with salinity. Check it twice before making the water change.
-What is the Alk/CA/Mg on your salt mix? This is the number your tank params should be stabilizing towards on its own.
-Figure out the right amount to feed, and feed consistent amount daily. Fish only need enough food to eat for 1-2 min. They have tiny stomaches, but will always seem hungry. If your nitrates continue to go up with that amount of feeding, add another level of filtration to balance (ideally not chemical filtration yet at this point).
-You can check your alk/ca, but don't worry about correcting it yet with dosing. Just keep tabs on it for now, and keep a log. See if water changes are getting you in the right direction.
-Even PH... don't stress too hard. Test the PH of your freshly mixed salt water before a water change. If it's off, go downstream and check your RODI water's PH.
If you do the above, in ~2 months time the uglies will be gone and you'll be ready to start adding some LPS corals and THEN - after a few weeks delay - start researching dosing. Dosing is one of the hardest things for a new reefer to learn how to do, so cut yourself a break.
(I guess I did add advice
. Good luck!
Params to focus on for next few months:
-Temp
-Salinity
-Nitrate (and to some degree phosphate, but even this you can pay less attention to for now).
I would also consider doubling your water change schedule. This will help stabilize things for you, and you don't have to worry about corals right now, it's the fish you need to keep happy.
Tips:
-Make sure your change water is exactly right with salinity. Check it twice before making the water change.
-What is the Alk/CA/Mg on your salt mix? This is the number your tank params should be stabilizing towards on its own.
-Figure out the right amount to feed, and feed consistent amount daily. Fish only need enough food to eat for 1-2 min. They have tiny stomaches, but will always seem hungry. If your nitrates continue to go up with that amount of feeding, add another level of filtration to balance (ideally not chemical filtration yet at this point).
-You can check your alk/ca, but don't worry about correcting it yet with dosing. Just keep tabs on it for now, and keep a log. See if water changes are getting you in the right direction.
-Even PH... don't stress too hard. Test the PH of your freshly mixed salt water before a water change. If it's off, go downstream and check your RODI water's PH.
If you do the above, in ~2 months time the uglies will be gone and you'll be ready to start adding some LPS corals and THEN - after a few weeks delay - start researching dosing. Dosing is one of the hardest things for a new reefer to learn how to do, so cut yourself a break.
(I guess I did add advice
. Good luck!
MnFish1
10K Club member
Some things to think about:
1. Make sure your tests are accurate/double checked
2. As others have said - you probably dont need to be dosing 'anything' at this point
3. Are you dosing with a pump - or 'dumping the chemicals in' - because - depending on when you do your tests you may be getting slightly off 'numbers;
4. Are you checking your tests at the same time each day - as they will vary some with whether your lights are on/off etc.
5. An Alkalinity of 7-7.5 is not bad - especially for whats in your tank
6. Time hopefully will help you get rid of the 'uglies' - good luck with your tank!!
One last thing - its possible your alkalinity is precipitating depending on how you're adding your chemicals - From my experience - often 'less is more'. One more comment - In my experience - I have found that most of the uglies happen because there isnt enough 'stuff' competing on the bare rock. Others might disagree with this - but - I used a product called 'Purple up' - which provides Coraline algae - which can help out compete your algae perhaps
OP
OP
ctopherl
Active Member
All good advice here so I won't add much more. Bottom line is that right now your tank is new and in the uglies, so your only focus should be keeping the fish happy, and nutrients in the lower range if possible (to help get you out of the uglies).
Params to focus on for next few months:
-Temp
-Salinity
-Nitrate (and to some degree phosphate, but even this you can pay less attention to for now).
I would also consider doubling your water change schedule. This will help stabilize things for you, and you don't have to worry about corals right now, it's the fish you need to keep happy.
Tips:
-Make sure your change water is exactly right with salinity. Check it twice before making the water change.
-What is the Alk/CA/Mg on your salt mix? This is the number your tank params should be stabilizing towards on its own.
-Figure out the right amount to feed, and feed consistent amount daily. Fish only need enough food to eat for 1-2 min. They have tiny stomaches, but will always seem hungry. If your nitrates continue to go up with that amount of feeding, add another level of filtration to balance (ideally not chemical filtration yet at this point).
-You can check your alk/ca, but don't worry about correcting it yet with dosing. Just keep tabs on it for now, and keep a log. See if water changes are getting you in the right direction.
-Even PH... don't stress too hard. Test the PH of your freshly mixed salt water before a water change. If it's off, go downstream and check your RODI water's PH.
If you do the above, in ~2 months time the uglies will be gone and you'll be ready to start adding some LPS corals and THEN - after a few weeks delay - start researching dosing. Dosing is one of the hardest things for a new reefer to learn how to do, so cut yourself a break.
(I guess I did add advice
Thanks this is a great summary! My only follow up question would be, why do you think I should wait until the uglies are gone to add LPS? I was thinking of trying a duncan or torch frag in the next week or so since my softies have been doing well.
And I don't remember if I mentioned this above or you are guessing, but I can confirm I am DEFINITELY in the ugly stage! I started dosing vibrant this week-we'll see if it helps.
schuby
Valuable Member
I recommend these three actions to be a successful reefer: observe, observe, observe. After you've observed your tank over time (days/weeks), then you'll have an idea as to the "rhythm" of your tank. If you test, test around the same time-of-day since values (such as Alk and PH) change throughout the day (not constant 24 hours a day).
Take your Alk. If you test it everyday at 6pm (without dosing), you may discover that it stays pretty constant at some value. This would confirm that nothing in your tank is consuming Alk, and that it doesn't require dosing.
Nature tends to keep things in balance. If you overdose Alk right now, then it will likely just precipitate and drop back down to the balanced value. ( I can't give you the chemical equations for this, but I have seen them.) If you overdose Alk when you have SPS, then it might kill some of them due to too rapid of a change.
Rapid changes in a saltwater tank will usually equate to death. We try to avoid rapid changes because of this. A tank, mostly left alone, will change at slow rate and not cause rapid death of inhabitants (fish, coral, inverts).
We, the reefers, will be the sole cause of practically all rapid changes in our tanks and the resulting loss of life. Feeding, dosing, water-changes (Salinity/temp), and lighting schedules/intensities are some of the things we can change too fast.
The amazing life in our tanks is completely dependent on us. If we make slow, thoughtful changes based on observation (and asking questions from others, reading books/online), we can have beautiful, successful tanks.
I give you a higher chance of success with your tank because you able to realize that something was off before it became a serious issue. You're off to a great start! Many things in our tanks are related. Don't worry about understanding them all at once.
Take your Alk. If you test it everyday at 6pm (without dosing), you may discover that it stays pretty constant at some value. This would confirm that nothing in your tank is consuming Alk, and that it doesn't require dosing.
Nature tends to keep things in balance. If you overdose Alk right now, then it will likely just precipitate and drop back down to the balanced value. ( I can't give you the chemical equations for this, but I have seen them.) If you overdose Alk when you have SPS, then it might kill some of them due to too rapid of a change.
Rapid changes in a saltwater tank will usually equate to death. We try to avoid rapid changes because of this. A tank, mostly left alone, will change at slow rate and not cause rapid death of inhabitants (fish, coral, inverts).
We, the reefers, will be the sole cause of practically all rapid changes in our tanks and the resulting loss of life. Feeding, dosing, water-changes (Salinity/temp), and lighting schedules/intensities are some of the things we can change too fast.
The amazing life in our tanks is completely dependent on us. If we make slow, thoughtful changes based on observation (and asking questions from others, reading books/online), we can have beautiful, successful tanks.
I give you a higher chance of success with your tank because you able to realize that something was off before it became a serious issue. You're off to a great start! Many things in our tanks are related. Don't worry about understanding them all at once.
MnFish1
10K Club member
I used Vibrant - I think I mentioned - use a lower than recommended dose - but - I would NOT add new corals, (fish are ok) - until you are done treating with whatever regimen you are using. You're going to be releasing nutrients, etc - and parameters could change, etc. I've posted my experience with vibrant before - I won't repeat it - but use with caution
The reason I suggest waiting on LPS isn't so much because the tank is in 'uglies' or having bacterial blooms and algae outbreaks, but more so because the tank clearly isn't stable yet. Your params are swinging, even the basic ones like salinity and ph. You're welcome to try corals of course.. I'd reco both duncan and candy canes. Torches are expensive, I'd wait until you see how the duncan does first.
LPS can be tougher to keep than people let on. They really like stability. Your tank will be stable soon, I have no doubt. Just needs more time. Gotta let that bacteria get comfy in all the nooks and crannies.
OP
OP
ctopherl
Active Member
All good advice here so I won't add much more. Bottom line is that right now your tank is new and in the uglies, so your only focus should be keeping the fish happy, and nutrients in the lower range if possible (to help get you out of the uglies).
Params to focus on for next few months:
-Temp
-Salinity
-Nitrate (and to some degree phosphate, but even this you can pay less attention to for now).
I would also consider doubling your water change schedule. This will help stabilize things for you, and you don't have to worry about corals right now, it's the fish you need to keep happy.
Tips:
-Make sure your change water is exactly right with salinity. Check it twice before making the water change.
-What is the Alk/CA/Mg on your salt mix? This is the number your tank params should be stabilizing towards on its own.
-Figure out the right amount to feed, and feed consistent amount daily. Fish only need enough food to eat for 1-2 min. They have tiny stomaches, but will always seem hungry. If your nitrates continue to go up with that amount of feeding, add another level of filtration to balance (ideally not chemical filtration yet at this point).
-You can check your alk/ca, but don't worry about correcting it yet with dosing. Just keep tabs on it for now, and keep a log. See if water changes are getting you in the right direction.
-Even PH... don't stress too hard. Test the PH of your freshly mixed salt water before a water change. If it's off, go downstream and check your RODI water's PH.
If you do the above, in ~2 months time the uglies will be gone and you'll be ready to start adding some LPS corals and THEN - after a few weeks delay - start researching dosing. Dosing is one of the hardest things for a new reefer to learn how to do, so cut yourself a break.
(I guess I did add advice
Quick update-did a water change and measured LFS water.
salinity - 1.021
alkalinity - 6.1
calcium - 483
Alkalinity seems really low and calcium trending high. Is it ok for my tank to trend towards 6 alk? Based on seeing their salinity I’m now convinced my salinity spike was caused by my “dosing”.
Wow good thing you checked. Those are shockingly bad numbers for water from an LFS. Did you ask them what the params were when you picked it up/if you didn’t, maybe give them a call to find out.
Wait.. are those the params for the LFS water, or your tank?
Never mind, I see if your post now that it was the LFS water. Generally, no it’s not okay to be trending towards those numbers. Few questions and I’ll try to help you out:
Have you been using the water from this same LFS consistently?
Are you using a refractomer to measure your salinity or another tool? If so, when was it last calibrated? My refractometer loses calibration every few days
What Alk/Ca test kits are you using?
Finally, have you measured your Mg? If it gets too low, it can destabilize your other major elements and cause precipitate.
7-7.5 is actually fine for Alk, it’s in natural seawater range. If that’s where your tank wants to be, I suggest you leave it there. Alk and Ca are supposed to be dosed in equal measure in a stable tank. I have some theories, but first want to get to the bottom of why the LFS water is in a dangerous range for reef.
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ctopherl
Active Member
Yes 100% of my water is from them. I even had them initially set the tank up with their water.
I am using a Milwaukee refractometer. It was about $120 off amazon. I calibrate with RO first every single time I use it.
I am using Hanna checkers for both alk and calcium.
I have not tested Mg yet-just got a salifert kit the other day.
I will say there was some visible sediment at the bottom of the bucket (black) and that is the case roughly 50% of the time.
I will also say this seems like a very quality LFS. They have been nothing but helpful, the shop is very clean, they all seem to really care, they medicate and QT all fish they get in. I haven’t had a chance to ask them about the alk yet but will soon.
My tank was trending towards 6 dkh originally, which freaked me out and caused me to try dosing soda ash solely since my calcium was sky high (~580) and I thought I needed to try to get them balanced better.
I will say everything I’ve added to the tank so far has been thriving, with the exception of one chromis I lost within ~12 hours and no idea why. I have 4 fish, 3 CuC inverts and now 5 coral frags (4 soft, 1 LPS added yesterday).
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ctopherl
Active Member
Update, got a response from LFS. Tl;dr is that they use bright well salt and he expects that to mix to 7.7 per brightwell documentation. Said maybe this was a one off bag of salt where kh fell to the bottom but he will keep an eye on it.
First off, congrats, sounds like you've jumped in with both feet and got some nice equipment. Better to buy once and cry once.
So now you know why your tank was trending towards 6 dkh, it's because that's what your mix water is at. Here's what I'd suggest. You've obviously got a nice system and equipment, take it one step further and make your own water. All you need is a brute can, an RO system, and some salt. You'll save money and time, and know your params. If you want to start small, the RO Buddie on amazon is a good kit, otherwise go with the BRS systems.
^Optional, but might fix your problem altogether. Until you know you're putting the right water in during water changes, you'll constantly be playing the test/dose catch up game.
FWIW, the params in your LFS water actually match a fish-only system. Maybe that's why they mix to those params. Def not what you want if you keep corals.
_ _
To get your tank back on track, first get your salinity stable and keep it there. I believe the Milwaukee will auto-adjust for temperature. That's good.
Next, check your mag. If it's above 1290-1300, it's prob not your prob. But raise it to 1320 anyway, it'll help stabilize your alk.
Next, you need to realize that there's an inverse relationship between alk and ca. If you goes up, the other goes down. So your goal is to get to the point where you don't need to dose only one element, but both in equal measure. To get to this point, yes you may need to dose elements one at a time. But also getting your water change water at the right params, so you can change more frequently to get back on track, is going to be critical.
So now you know why your tank was trending towards 6 dkh, it's because that's what your mix water is at. Here's what I'd suggest. You've obviously got a nice system and equipment, take it one step further and make your own water. All you need is a brute can, an RO system, and some salt. You'll save money and time, and know your params. If you want to start small, the RO Buddie on amazon is a good kit, otherwise go with the BRS systems.
^Optional, but might fix your problem altogether. Until you know you're putting the right water in during water changes, you'll constantly be playing the test/dose catch up game.
FWIW, the params in your LFS water actually match a fish-only system. Maybe that's why they mix to those params. Def not what you want if you keep corals.
_ _
To get your tank back on track, first get your salinity stable and keep it there. I believe the Milwaukee will auto-adjust for temperature. That's good.
Next, check your mag. If it's above 1290-1300, it's prob not your prob. But raise it to 1320 anyway, it'll help stabilize your alk.
Next, you need to realize that there's an inverse relationship between alk and ca. If you goes up, the other goes down. So your goal is to get to the point where you don't need to dose only one element, but both in equal measure. To get to this point, yes you may need to dose elements one at a time. But also getting your water change water at the right params, so you can change more frequently to get back on track, is going to be critical.
OP
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ctopherl
Active Member
Thanks for all the help.
I am really trying to avoid mixing my own as I don’t have a place to put it. The one exception would be if I could put it outside, but I’m assuming the 115 AZ heat will screw this up in some way?
Per my other comment the LFS stated they are shooting for 7.7dkh as they use brightwell salt and that is their claim. Will try them again next week and give it another test, maybe ask them to test it before I leave with the water.
I will check Mg and see what it gives me.
What you stated about Alk/Ca was my understanding, so that’s good at least. That’s where my logic came from trying to only dose Alk since my Ca was so high at the same time.
MnFish1
10K Club member
I use Brightwell Neomarine - its a great salt - all of the parameters are designed - if mixed properly - to match 'natural seawater'. My guess is that they did not use enough salt in one of their mixes. (i.e. everything is slighltly low) - Nothing is 'horrible'
I agree entirely with Less is more.
When I set up my tank I just used Instant Ocean Sea Salt, didn't worry too much about alkalinity, calcium, or magnesium. I focused on stability and just hitting the general water parameters of 1.026 sg and a temperature of 78 F. I tested for salinity, ammonia, nitrites, nitrates, and pH. Let the tank go through it's phases of diatom blooms with the addition of healthy bacteria (turbo start), a damsel, and some CUC. Never dosed anything and just did regular water changes, allowing the tank time to mature without the addition of unnecessary additives. After a couple months, added my first corals and started testing other parameters. My alkalinity was low (6.5 dKH), but it didn't matter as long as everything was acclimated properly and was stable. No corals died or looked unhappy, they probably just grew at a slower pace. This too shocked me initially, as I switched over to a different salt mix with higher alkalinity (Red Sea Coral Pro). I have raised the alkalinity slowly but now it's sitting at 7.7-8.0 dKH (0.3 dKH consumption a day).
The keys to success are patience and stability imho. Good luck with your tank and happy reefing!
When I set up my tank I just used Instant Ocean Sea Salt, didn't worry too much about alkalinity, calcium, or magnesium. I focused on stability and just hitting the general water parameters of 1.026 sg and a temperature of 78 F. I tested for salinity, ammonia, nitrites, nitrates, and pH. Let the tank go through it's phases of diatom blooms with the addition of healthy bacteria (turbo start), a damsel, and some CUC. Never dosed anything and just did regular water changes, allowing the tank time to mature without the addition of unnecessary additives. After a couple months, added my first corals and started testing other parameters. My alkalinity was low (6.5 dKH), but it didn't matter as long as everything was acclimated properly and was stable. No corals died or looked unhappy, they probably just grew at a slower pace. This too shocked me initially, as I switched over to a different salt mix with higher alkalinity (Red Sea Coral Pro). I have raised the alkalinity slowly but now it's sitting at 7.7-8.0 dKH (0.3 dKH consumption a day).
The keys to success are patience and stability imho. Good luck with your tank and happy reefing!
I started a 38 gallon 3 years ago, and didn´t dose ANYTHING until I increased the numbers of SPS and put in acros. I kept softies and LPS thriving with regular water changes only. And that even when having some encrusting and plating Montipora.
A rule of thumb: If you got a problem: Water change. And mix your water yourself. Then you know whats in it.
And remember to calibrate your refractometer. I know people who crashed their tank because of way out of control salinty.
A rule of thumb: If you got a problem: Water change. And mix your water yourself. Then you know whats in it.
And remember to calibrate your refractometer. I know people who crashed their tank because of way out of control salinty.
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ctopherl
Active Member
Thanks, that makes me feel better! I will hold off on dosing for a while as I have no SPS and all my corals are baby frags for now
All my other params are keeping steady with my habits so sounds like I am on the right track.
