ALK Dropped fast

[CobyCeltic]

im really struggling. ive just started using Kalkwasser but before that i was using regular Sodium Bicarbonate. alk was staying pretty steady but, for some reason, even though it has sodium in the name, didnt think it would affect salinity too much. i am also getting quite a bit of salt precipitation so i figured whatever salt was added from it would even out but my salinity sneaked higher and higher. ive remedied that situation. sort of. salinity is fine but my duncan has lost 4/5 heads.

so my first question is: does high salinity kill your benificial bacteria? because all of a sudden ive gotten an ammonia spike of 0.50ppm. ive remedied this with various bacteria bottles. seems to be working again. also had a bunch of algae die (more on this later)

a week goes by, my 1 headed duncan which is what it started as when i got it (im so sad to see its back at the start, and praying i dont kill it) is still alive, but barely. since i started using Kalk wasser, about 1tsp per gallon in my 5 gallon ATO. the next day, my alk didnt increase, its DROPPED from 9 to 5. what gives?

i know the general rule of thumb is to wait it out and see what happens but it seems like im going from one extreme to the other constantly just by standing by and im really not wanting to lose this duncan, its not the most expensive coral but its the one ive had the most growth with.

ive got a 40 breeder. started upgrading it to a sump, then a skimmer, about to add an algae scrubber.

ive gone from GHA (severe case), to red cyano, to Dinos and the dinos just grew over the GHA but didnt kill it. i heard dinos means the tank is too clean but GHA means its too dirty and so i wasnt sure what to do as if i do anything to fix one, it will worsen the other. so some days i ran the skimmer, others not.
today, most of my algae issues are almost gone. little bit of GHA left but its turned white (not sure if because alk tanked to 5 while i was at work or what... but if it cures my GHA ill try and take that silver lining from this experience).

this tank was cycled, and im pretty sure im at year 2 now. fish have been fine. corals sadly has been a genocide. im not looking to buy anymore till i can at least keep one alive and growing for at least six months or more without seeing any negative situations.

salinity 1.023/1.024
alk currently at 6 from 5 earlier today
ph 8.3
ammonia is somewhere from 0 to .25ppm
nitrite is somewhere from 0 to 0.25ppm
nitrate is about 5.0ppm
phosphate has always read 0 but ive been battling 3 algaes at the same time so i dont know what it is. ive been ripping and tearing it out for weeks to get rid of it.
calcium is high 600+ish, i believe because i was supplementing it alone and then adding baking soda for the alk, but now adding Kalkwasser adds alk and calcium? so double dip of calcium
magnesium i couldnt tell you in all honesty, and im hoping my issues arent solely because of this metric but i will get a tester for this soon.

 

[Mr. Mojo Rising]

You don’t mention how high salinity? Why keep salinity so low at 1.023? Why no pictures? What kind of test kits are you using? Thank you.

 

[CobyCeltic]

You don’t mention how high salinity? Why keep salinity so low at 1.023? Why no pictures? What kind of test kits are you using? Thank you.

salinity was in the 1.030 range.
in all honesty keeping it at 1.023 is because my salinity always tended to creep higher so i lower it over the month with water changes and it rides up to a better spot, that and my refractometer has been wonky sometimes so i err on the side of slightly less rather than way too much.

started with API, still have those, Fluval, not a fan, but have em around. and salifert tests.

ive never really taken pics of my tank cause its never been something great to look at lol
it really is just algae covered rocks. GHA was everywhere, cyano mostly lower half, dinos on the top 1/3rd only

using IO reef salts
kalkwasser with ATO reservoir
my lights are ran from 10am to 6pm. blues 2 hours, whites+blues and then 2 hours blues.
its just a viparspectra light which has been working and growing coral. i would like to upgrade but honestly im throwing alot of money at this tank, upgrading here and there with my budget but its kinda disheartening not seeing improvement. hoping the algae scrubber works.

 

[Mr. Mojo Rising]

Salinity of 1.030 will not kill beneficial bacteria. If you have ammonia of .5, it is either a test error or something died in the tank.

it sounds like you don't have an auto top off (ATO), which will really help to keep the salinity stable. The salinity is the easiest parameter to keep stable.

API and fluval are the worst, salifert and hanna are the best.

What kind of flow do you have? Good flow is very important to help hold off algae. My 40 breeder has 2 gyres blasting away in there.

The main food for algae is dissolved organics, which are from feeding too much and food is left uneaten and rots in the water. Feed only what your fish can eat in 30 seconds., but feed more often during the day. Frequent water changes will help reduce dissolved organics. A skimmer will help reduce dissolved organics, and better flow will push more water into the filtration systems.

Personally I would stop dosing anything in your tank, bring the parameters back to baseline, then test with hanna test kits, then dose if you need to.

If your fish are fine and corals dying, I get the impression that your parameters change wildly and are not really stable. This is what you need to fix for corals.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

The alk drop of 4 dKH overnight is either test error, or precipitation of calcium carbonate, such as hardening of sand, deposits on heaters and pump impellers, etc.

This is my generic recommendation for precipitation issues (e.g., hardening sand):

1. Stop all efforts to boost pH.
2. Stop dosing alk for a bit and let it decline.
3. Reduce pH by switching to a low pH alk mix like sodium bicarbonate, or a calcium organic such as Tropic Marin All for Reef.
4. Ensure magnesium is normal to high.
5. Keep organics and phosphate on the high side.

After a few days of not dosing alk, restart slowly, adding additives to a very high flow area so it mixes in fast.

 

[GARRIGA]

Can calcium be 600 or is that possibly a test error?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Can calcium be 600 or is that possibly a test error?

It can be real if overdosed or salinity is still very high, or test error.

 

[GARRIGA]

It can be real if overdosed or salinity is still very high, or test error.

What seems odd to me about the 600 calcium being that if alkalinity precipitated out then potentially due to low magnesium which would also precipitate out calcium and guessing this likely best scenario since OP doesn't mention dosing magnesium. Perhaps testing that might help being my guess. My limited knowledge not aware of why else would alkalinity drop beyond having macroalgae and tank lacking co2.

Not sure what going from 1.030 to 1.023 salinity does to the solution as that now gets beyond my grasp being not something experienced therefore not researched.

My intrigue mostly because experimental tank ran high on calcium of 550 (ICP at tear down showed 670 plus which I thought was an error) yet alkalinity steady 9 and due to my overdosing calcium because tap was one of my experiments. Sadly we learn mostly from each other's mistakes.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

What seems odd to me about the 600 calcium being that if alkalinity precipitated out then potentially due to low magnesium which would also precipitate out calcium and guessing this likely best scenario since OP doesn't mention dosing magnesium. Perhaps testing that might help being my guess. My limited knowledge not aware of why else would alkalinity drop beyond having macroalgae and tank lacking co2.

Not sure what going from 1.030 to 1.023 salinity does to the solution as that now gets beyond my grasp being not something experienced therefore not researched.

My intrigue mostly because experimental tank ran high on calcium of 550 (ICP at tear down showed 670 plus which I thought was an error) yet alkalinity steady 9 and due to my overdosing calcium because tap was one of my experiments. Sadly we learn mostly from each other's mistakes.

Large calcium overdose may be the root of the problem.

 

[Biff0rz]

All I'm reading is instability. With that, no corals will do well.

You say the tank is 2yrs old but you have nitrite?? Sounds like something is still cycling tbh. Ammonia and nitrite should be 0.

I would do as others suggested but also, get salinity in check and STABLE. 1.025/26 and keep it there. Then focus on other things but your chemistry/balance is very out of whak for some reason and you need to find the source of that.

 

[CobyCeltic]

Salinity of 1.030 will not kill beneficial bacteria. If you have ammonia of .5, it is either a test error or something died in the tank.

it sounds like you don't have an auto top off (ATO), which will really help to keep the salinity stable. The salinity is the easiest parameter to keep stable.

API and fluval are the worst, salifert and hanna are the best.

What kind of flow do you have? Good flow is very important to help hold off algae. My 40 breeder has 2 gyres blasting away in there.

The main food for algae is dissolved organics, which are from feeding too much and food is left uneaten and rots in the water. Feed only what your fish can eat in 30 seconds., but feed more often during the day. Frequent water changes will help reduce dissolved organics. A skimmer will help reduce dissolved organics, and better flow will push more water into the filtration systems.

Personally I would stop dosing anything in your tank, bring the parameters back to baseline, then test with hanna test kits, then dose if you need to.

If your fish are fine and corals dying, I get the impression that your parameters change wildly and are not really stable. This is what you need to fix for corals.

is algae die off able to cause ammonia to spike? 3 algaes locked in a battle royale for tank dominance i know it releases the nitrates/phosphates back into the water if not plucked and removed out of the system, correct?

i have a 5 gallon ATO and recently switched to Kalk, instead of sodium bicarbonate. i think im seeing positive results already.

hard to state what kind of flow i have but everywhere there is GHA its all following the flow with its strands, fish arent struggling to swim.

food, im confident in saying is partly the issue, because im seeing Dinos i figured i should feed more to increase phosphates/nitrates. but then there is GHA and so i should be doing less? so i have the skimmer running but feeding more. have been feeding pellets and definitely will be switching to frozen. easy fix there.

when it comes to salinity, are you just using a refractometer and checking multiple times? or should i also be using a hydrometer just to see if they are both relatively close?

 

[CobyCeltic]

i would love nothing more than to keep salinity stable. for whatever reason, it climbs. my overflow into the sump causes water to spit up and out which i would assume lowers salinity over time because its lowering water volume and then replaced by RODI ATO? i try to keep my skimmer on a dry skim but i assume when theres less particulates in the water it becomes easier to lift water into the collection cup becoming wet skim? which means salt water being removed from the system and then again replaced by RODI ATO? what is happening and then also salt crystalizing out of the tanks here and there...

like mentioned before, im pretty sure it was from the sodium bicarbonate building up? since switching to kalk im monitoring it closely

 

[Formulator]

Your story has been repeated so many times by new reefers. I think the reason for the Alk drop is beside the point, but some ideas have already been shared. You really need to stop dumping chemicals and bottled bacteria in your tank and let it mature and stabilize with just salt and water. You don’t need kalk or any calcium/alk supplements until you start seeing coralline. Just do 15-20% biweekly water changes. When you start getting purple coralline, you can start adding corals and start monitoring and dosing alk/calcium or kalk. Your ATO reservoir should be filled with freshwater only. Why you ever had it filled with sodium bicarbonate blows my mind. Less is more at this point.

 

[CobyCeltic]

it was my understanding that coralline doesnt magically appear, you have to seed it? i prefer not having it because then its taking the minerals i want for the corals.
like i said before i understand the standard practice is sit and wait but i already have coral and theyre not doing well so i need to be giving them mag/alk/calcium, correct? i understand the parameters are far from perfect but if its not mature and so swingy why would it be growing from 1 head to 5 before this happened?

im not doing anything extreme, but at the same time sitting back and let it run its course is also causing issues to the tank.
no 2 part dosings
no GFO or phoshate removers anything like that.
bacteria bottle was only for insurance to cover for the sudden ammonia. i used the same brand when i started the tank and it worked.

just supplementing mag, calcium, alk for the corals i already have and letting the skimmer run.
sodium bicarbonate may seem extreme but to a beginner it seems logical if you dont have a separate dosing pump as long as the amount added is calculated. it being only 250mg of salt in a tsp vs actual salt being 5800mg? it shouldnt build up enough before the next waterchange. just got tired of having to do the daily routine of getting tank water and sodium bicarbonate mixed up.

im no longer using sodium bicarbonate so thats no longer an issue.
i do biweekly water changes of 20ish%. 2 five gallon buckets for a 40 gallon breader +20 gallon sump only filled halfway

 

[Formulator]

it was my understanding that coralline doesnt magically appear, you have to seed it? i prefer not having it because then its taking the minerals i want for the corals.
like i said before i understand the standard practice is sit and wait but i already have coral and theyre not doing well so i need to be giving them mag/alk/calcium, correct? i understand the parameters are far from perfect but if its not mature and so swingy why would it be growing from 1 head to 5 before this happened?

im not doing anything extreme, but at the same time sitting back and let it run its course is also causing issues to the tank.
no 2 part dosings
no GFO or phoshate removers anything like that.
bacteria bottle was only for insurance to cover for the sudden ammonia. i used the same brand when i started the tank and it worked.

just supplementing mag, calcium, alk for the corals i already have and letting the skimmer run.
sodium bicarbonate may seem extreme but to a beginner it seems logical if you dont have a separate dosing pump as long as the amount added is calculated. it being only 250mg of salt in a tsp vs actual salt being 5800mg? it shouldnt build up enough before the next waterchange. just got tired of having to do the daily routine of getting tank water and sodium bicarbonate mixed up.

im no longer using sodium bicarbonate so thats no longer an issue.
i do biweekly water changes of 20ish%. 2 five gallon buckets for a 40 gallon breader +20 gallon sump only filled halfway

Coralline does not need to be seeded. It will grow in any tank with appropriate and stable parameters once established.

Sodium bicarbonate is essentially the alk part of 2-part, so you were adding Alk constantly. The rate of water evaporation will far exceed your alk demand in a new tank with only a few corals. You don’t need to dose, even with a few corals. Water changes are enough until you get a lot of coral actively growing. If/when you do need to dose alkalinity and/or calcium, you can do small adjustments manually a couple times per week without a dosing pump. Kalk in the top-off can be a great option, but usually better for well established tanks that are overflowing with coral. For a beginner, I would recommend starting with a simple 2 part and dosing manually to adjust calcium and alkalinity a couple times/week. But again, I doubt you need to yet. Water changes will replenish your calcium and Alk well enough with just a handful of corals, especially soft corals. I would be willing to wager if you cut off all dosing and stick to water changes and freshwater ATO for a few weeks, things will look much better and your tank will be more stable. You might find you consume some Alk due to precipitation and in that case you could dose small amounts of alk. You can use your sodium bicarb for this, just not in your top-off. Make up a solution with it to dose manually if needed. Theoretically, calcium is also being consumed, but in my experience at the beginning, with consistent water changes you can get away with small adjustments of Alk only (if anything). Aim for a lower Alk value like 7 to discourage precipitation until your corals really start growing and coralline starts to appear. Then you can raise a bit if desired and start a regular dosing schedule with 2-part.

 

[CobyCeltic]

Coralline does not need to be seeded. It will grow in any tank with appropriate and stable parameters once established.

Sodium bicarbonate is essentially the alk part of 2-part, so you were adding Alk constantly. The rate of water evaporation will far exceed your alk demand in a new tank with only a few corals. You don’t need to dose, even with a few corals. Water changes are enough until you get a lot of coral actively growing. If/when you do need to dose alkalinity and/or calcium, you can do small adjustments manually a couple times per week without a dosing pump. Kalk in the top-off can be a great option, but usually better for well established tanks that are overflowing with coral. For a beginner, I would recommend starting with a simple 2 part and dosing manually to adjust calcium and alkalinity a couple times/week. But again, I doubt you need to yet. Water changes will replenish your calcium and Alk well enough with just a handful of corals, especially soft corals. I would be willing to wager if you cut off all dosing and stick to water changes and freshwater ATO for a few weeks, things will look much better and your tank will be more stable. You might find you consume some Alk due to precipitation and in that case you could dose small amounts of alk. You can use your sodium bicarb for this, just not in your top-off. Make up a solution with it to dose manually if needed. Theoretically, calcium is also being consumed, but in my experience at the beginning, with consistent water changes you can get away with small adjustments of Alk only (if anything). Aim for a lower Alk value like 7 to discourage precipitation until your corals really start growing and coralline starts to appear. Then you can raise a bit if desired and start a regular dosing schedule with 2-part.

ok thats definitely a game changer. what about coralline algae and lighting? im shooting for low light corals and coralline is more similar to sps in terms of intensity or no? i also used to have much more white intensity and very little blue which i heard deters corraline growth? now my whites are at 5% and blue at 60%.

i had whites higher cause some were saying its better for coral growth and blues is more for the viewing. but algae was growing too much as well.

 

[Formulator]

ok thats definitely a game changer. what about coralline algae and lighting? im shooting for low light corals and coralline is more similar to sps in terms of intensity or no? i also used to have much more white intensity and very little blue which i heard deters corraline growth? now my whites are at 5% and blue at 60%.

i had whites higher cause some were saying its better for coral growth and blues is more for the viewing. but algae was growing too much as well.

It will grow in low light. If there are corals, coralline algae will grow. Look at the walls of my tank a few years ago before I had to restart. You can see it growing even at the bottom near the sand bed on the front left. That area is probably only 100 PAR. Also note that this tank was never “seeded” with anything and I live in Missouri so nowhere near the ocean. Probably came in on frags and live rock, but I imagine it would grow spontaneously even in a tank started with dry rock and without adding corals. It just kind of finds a way.

 

[Biff0rz]

i would love nothing more than to keep salinity stable. for whatever reason, it climbs. my overflow into the sump causes water to spit up and out which i would assume lowers salinity over time because its lowering water volume and then replaced by RODI ATO? i try to keep my skimmer on a dry skim but i assume when theres less particulates in the water it becomes easier to lift water into the collection cup becoming wet skim? which means salt water being removed from the system and then again replaced by RODI ATO? what is happening and then also salt crystalizing out of the tanks here and there...

like mentioned before, im pretty sure it was from the sodium bicarbonate building up? since switching to kalk im monitoring it closely

If you don't keep salinity stable corals will always struggle for you. Yes, if you wet skim ato will replace w rodi lowering sg. I'd figure out the spit up and out issue. Salt creep is normal.