Alk question...

Randy Holmes-Farley · Nov 13, 2015

Adkins said:
However, I was on the fence about how to interpret Page 1 ; Paragraph 5 of this Seachem publication.

Any guidance on the matter would be greatly appreciated.

I would like to change my previous post of "certainty" to one of questionable [emoji4]

What publication?

FWIW, Seachem polygluconate would not be the product they'd put into their salt mix. That would be a disaster, IMO, and the alk would skyrocket as bacteria potentially metabolized the polygluconate, leaving as much as 59 dKH of alkalinity from it.

Adkins · Nov 13, 2015

Sorry, I forgot to paste the link after my mentioning it.

http://www.seachem.com/Library/Articles/The_Contrarian_Reef.pdf

Sartium · Nov 13, 2015

I have always kept Alk high around 12 dkh because I have low PH (new home with high CO2 levels) This is all based on the big PH article that Randy published about PH and CO2 levels in the home. Is this still a good approach? Should I ensure my nutrients are a little higher since I am running high Alk?

While I am at it I was always told that I should does 2 part equally but to keep my Alk up around 12 dkh I have to dose about 2x as much Alk as I do Ca, is this a concern?

Randy Holmes-Farley · Nov 13, 2015

Sartium said:
I have always kept Alk high around 12 dkh because I have low PH (new home with high CO2 levels) This is all based on the big PH article that Randy published about PH and CO2 levels in the home. Is this still a good approach? Should I ensure my nutrients are a little higher since I am running high Alk?

While I am at it I was always told that I should does 2 part equally but to keep my Alk up around 12 dkh I have to dose about 2x as much Alk as I do Ca, is this a concern?

The only reason you'd have to dose twice as much alk as calcium is if your salt mix doesn't match the alk and calcium of your tank (or nitrate is rising rapidly). Just keepign alk higher doesn't do that. That said, it is OK to do it if needed.

What is the pH and what calcium level do you target?

What are you actually dosing?

reefologist55 · Nov 13, 2015

Thetr may be def truth to this....my tsnk has been runnin w 0 phos from inception...4 months old..but tons of lr from mature setup, im still calibrating my alk...and ive noticed my sps polyps arent extending as much as it did in the store. I had been runin a gfo reactor and had plenty of kent phos sponge in sump. I removed all the phossponge...keeping the gfo...feeding corals a little bit more a week now...increasing my alk w my electronic dosing to 8-9..cureently at 7...was dosing part 1+2, 2:3ml an hr, 24 hr..period..so now its equal parts 3:3ml/hr...phos was 0, calc 500, alk 7, mag 1250 (ive noticed as the alk climbs..so does the mag) please lmk if im wrong. Goal is to bring alk to 8-9 and just a hint of phos....
60G cube, 30g sump, kessil 360we, mixed reef, 4 fish setup

Randy Holmes-Farley · Nov 13, 2015

Adkins said:
Sorry, I forgot to paste the link after my mentioning it.

http://www.seachem.com/Library/Articles/The_Contrarian_Reef.pdf

FWIW, that article is very old. Leo, the author and previous owner of Seachem, died quite a few years ago. It isn't suggesting they have chelated calcium in their salt mix, but anyway, the Seachem salt has changed formulation since that article was written.

The chelated calcium product Leo is referring to is their polygluconate calcium. IMO, I'd avoid it as it adds an unclear amount of alkalinity as well as calcium.

Sartium · Nov 13, 2015

Randy Holmes-Farley said:
The only reason you'd have to dose twice as much alk as calcium is if your salt mix doesn't match the alk and calcium of your tank (or nitrate is rising rapidly). Just keepign alk higher doesn't do that. That said, it is OK to do it if needed.

What is the pH and what calcium level do you target?

What are you actually dosing?

pH swings are 7.8 to 8.0 and Ca I keep around 430

I use the BRS two part solution, my alk seems to always want to drop faster than the Ca.

Sartium · Nov 13, 2015

Sartium said:
pH swings are 7.8 to 8.0 and Ca I keep around 430

I use the BRS two part solution, my alk seems to always want to drop faster than the Ca.

Also my nitrates read zero on an API test kit, I have never tested it with a more precise kit like RedSea

Randy Holmes-Farley · Nov 13, 2015

Sartium said:
pH swings are 7.8 to 8.0 and Ca I keep around 430

I use the BRS two part solution, my alk seems to always want to drop faster than the Ca.

That is the norm if you are not dosing enough of both. You always notice it first in alkalinity.

Many salt mixes have more than 430 ppm calcium, so that may also be part of the reason alk seems to drop faster.

That pH range is OK, and I wouldn't keep alk any higher. If you want to lower nutrients more (like a ULNS tank), and you have SPS, it might be worth backing off on the alk, taking whatever hit you get sin pH, to avoid burnt tips. But the API kit alone doesn't tell whether you are in a ULNS situation.

Adkins · Nov 13, 2015

Randy Holmes-Farley said:
There is no commercial salt mix that I know of that presently contains calcium in a chelated form, and I'd be surprised if any do. Just because some mixes claim they do not have it, that does not mean any do (at least not in recent years). It would be quite expensive to do so, and so I'm not sure why any company would do such a thing and not let people know (I also do not think it desirable).

Normal Instant Ocean contains no chelators (as a senior technical rep explained once to me).

Reef Crystals contains a small amount of metal chelator designed to reduce the toxicity of metals such as copper. A few other companies may do this as well (or at least have in the past;Sera Meersalz for example).

Neither provide calcium in a chelated form, and the amount of chelator in RC is way, way smaller than the amount of calcium, so the calcium in it is not "chelated".

Thank you for taking time to explain and elaborate on this.

I'm feel better knowing that you feel that none of them contain chelated calcium. I'm now at sort of a disposition with Lou of Tropic Marin and his claims against these products. That's for another time lol.

I can continue the use of my reef crystals carefree again.

Back to topic!

Randy Holmes-Farley · Nov 14, 2015

Adkins said:
Thank you for taking time to explain and elaborate on this.

I'm feel better knowing that you feel that none of them contain chelated calcium. I'm now at sort of a disposition with Lou of Tropic Marin and his claims against these products. That's for another time lol.

I can continue the use of my reef crystals carefree again.

Back to topic!

If you interact with him again, ask him which brand contains chelated calcium, and how he knows this to be currently true. That's a different question than allowing folks to make claims about how theirs does not.

IMO, this is reminiscent of the salmon scam where one company guaranteed theirs would not turn pink in the can:

http://www.snopes.com/business/market/pinkcan.asp

Adkins · Feb 14, 2016

Randy Holmes-Farley said:
If you interact with him again, ask him which brand contains chelated calcium, and how he knows this to be currently true. That's a different question than allowing folks to make claims about how theirs does not.

IMO, this is reminiscent of the salmon scam where one company guaranteed theirs would not turn pink in the can:

http://www.snopes.com/business/market/pinkcan.asp

Randy,

Here is a surprising update to this "story"...

To whom it may concern,

Thank you very much for hosting the Tropic Marin Basic Reef Chemistry seminar.

We would like to inform you about an error in one section of the presentation which relates to the use of chelated calcium in certain salt mixes. We stated that the only way to have a high calcium level while, at the same time, having a high alkalinity, is by the use of chelated calcium. This is scientifically not correct. We also may have mentioned that all salt mixes that have high calcium levels, while having high alkalinity, are using chelated forms of calcium. This is also not correct.

It is also important to understand that we are formally retracting ANY statements that we made in relation to any other salt company’s products in relation to high calcium and alkalinity levels.

Please forward this letter to seminar attendees as an addendum to that session, correcting the information and bringing it up to date.

If this information prompts any questions either from you or attendees of our seminar feel free to contact at the number below for clarification.

We apologize very much for any inconvenience and thank you for your understanding.

All the best,
Lou Ekus
Director of US Operations
Tropic Marin USA