Alk steadily decreasing, while CA is not moving

bobssecrtsn · Aug 12, 2015

I dont post very much here, just lurk around, but with everything I've read I am stumped with my dosing regime as well as my parameters,

My tank is a 55g total volume with 26 sps corals, frags that are encrusting very well, and growing.

What has happened to my tank was, Without noticing I overdosed my tank with 2 part ( 80ml daily ) and my GFO kept clumping up and turning grey( precipitation)

Now that I have that under control, I decreased my dosage to 20ml daily,

My problem:

My ALK keeps dropping every 15-24 hours and I would have to dose an extra 5-10ml to bump it up,
Well, I've read many sites with randy discussing about the usage of CA/ALK about 18ppm to 2.8Dkh, as well as precipitation and coral demand to nitrogen cycle with ammonia comsuming Alk.

My Calium is doing fine, 450CA the entire 2 weeks I've been measuring,

Here is my parameters
my overall list of alk test dosing 20ml ca/alk daily
8/6 - 7.6Dkh / 450CA - dosed 2.2ml extra for alk
8/7 - 7.6Dkh / 450CA - did not dose any
8/9 - 7PM 6.7Dkh / 450CA - dosed 13.4ml extra for alk
8/9 - 11pm SAME DAY 7.3Dkh / 450CA
8/10 - 7.3Dkh / 450CA - dosed 11.1ml extra for alk/ shut off CA doser
8/11 - 7:30 AM - 7.6Dkh / 450CA
8/11 - 6:30 PM - 7.3Dkh / 430CA - just dosed 5ml extra for alk

from 8/6 - 8/10 MG was @ 1396 and dropped to 1365

Its frustrating right now having to test every day and having alk drop, with CA being the same. any idea what i should do at this point?

I confirmed my dosers are dosing correctly as well, I switched to RSCP blue bucket, as well, tested fresh batch and it was 9dkh, I did a wc but alk did not rise.

Do i have to remove the clumped up sand or precipated objects and remove white film on heaters or pumps?

as well, I recalibrated my refractometer with calibration fluid to 35ppm, bought new b bionic 2 part.

What should i do at this point? i am out of options. Please help me!

bobssecrtsn · Aug 12, 2015

So i read here,
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-12/rhf/

Randy says

"If an aquarist is supplying a balanced additive to his aquarium, and calcium seems stable but alkalinity is declining, it may very well be that what is needed is more of the balanced additive, not just alkalinity."

Thats exactly whats happening to me,

And also on other site, he said

Calcium (ppm) ALK MEQ/L

360/0

390/1.5

400/2.0

410/2.5

420/3.0

430/3.5

440/4.0

450/5.0

460/5.5

I am going to try to aim for 410CA and 8Dkh ( I just checked and i am at 8.2, i dosed 20ml Alk, so we shall see what is in stores for me tmrow.

picture for reference of new growth

ZoaCollector · Aug 12, 2015

Doesn't Magnesium have something to do with stability of Calcium and Alk? Pretty sure it does.

bobssecrtsn · Aug 12, 2015

ZoaCollector said:
Doesn't Magnesium have something to do with stability of Calcium and Alk? Pretty sure it does.

I dont know how much you read my post, but i did state my MG was at 1395-2365 throughout my measurements, Mg has not ever been in the low range..

ReefMadScientist · Aug 12, 2015

I have been in this "see-saw" effect once or twice before. So the first thing I would do is get your mG around 1500 and keep it there. Your mG dropping is the cause of your alkalinity dropping. Your Ca is staying the same so that is normal.

1.) Raise your Magnesium first to 1500 and keep it there. Add whatever kH you can to keep it stable. You will have to test daily until your conditions stabilize. (I think you can only raise your Mg 80ppms or so daily).
2.) Once Magnesium is stable, start increasing your Alkalinity to 8 to 8.5. While doing this, your Ca may start to decrease. So during this time you will need to slowly increase your Ca as well. You are going to have to dose a lot of alkalinity to raise it initially since you are fighting with Ca. Once your numbers are stable, then you can measure your usage and calibrate your doser accurately.

Use this to help assist with how much to dose to get to your levels.

http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/reef-calculator

IMPORTANT NOTE:

Do this VERY SLOWLY.

Randy Holmes-Farley · Aug 12, 2015

How large is this tank?

I'm trying to figure out based on the alk dosed, how much the alk was boosted (in total dKH) during the time calcium appeared to not change.

Most likely, the answer is that it is just noise in the calcium testing.

Did you do any water changes in this time?

bobssecrtsn · Aug 12, 2015

Hey Randy, thanks for the reply, the total volume is 55Gallons,

I do 5Gallons WC every week mostly tuesday, with RSCP blue bucket salt, I do test alk with the new batch of salt which is, 9dkH,

I did test my water this morning 7:45AM

7.9Dkh
420CA

So CA is dropping, I am not so worried about CA staying there, its the Alk thats giving me trouble, Having to test daily and dose to boost alk is a PITA.

Randy Holmes-Farley · Aug 12, 2015

You should be able to get to the point where a fixed daily dose will keep both measures fairly steady and you should not need daily measurement.

bobssecrtsn · Aug 12, 2015

Randy Holmes-Farley said:
You should be able to get to the point where a fixed daily dose will keep both measures fairly steady and you should not need daily measurement.

Thanks Randy, I do remember in one of your articles it states that you dont need to remove the clumpy sand and clean your heaters from precipitation, is this true or did I read it from some place else?

Randy Holmes-Farley · Aug 13, 2015

Removing clumpy sand or not is not a concern, IMO, but I'd clean a heater once in a while because too thick of a coating on them might make them get too hot inside due to reduced heat transfer through the coating. Mine usually cracks off fairly easily when thick.

bobssecrtsn · Aug 13, 2015

Thanks Randy.

With an update,
Without any extra dosing to raise Alk, these are my levels for the past day's

8/11 @ 10PM 8.2 Dkh
8/12 @ 7:55AM 7.9Dkh
8/12 @ 6:55PM 7.9Dkh
8/13 @ 7:52AM 7.6Dkh
8/13 @ 5:55PM 7.6Dkh

CA has dropped to 420PPM ever since I turned off the doser for a day.

I am seeing a trend here, Dosing at 30ML of both 2 part I can see my alk is staying a little more consistent. and CA sticking at 420PPM

It may be noise in the test kit, so I'm not going to increase the dosage or anything, by tmrow if it drops to 7.3Dkh What should i do? increase both 2 part?

Randy Holmes-Farley · Aug 13, 2015

So it looks like the demand is roughly 0.3 dKH per day more than you are dosing.

I might start adding that extra and see what happens after a week.

Randy Holmes-Farley · Aug 13, 2015

Duplicate post

NoStRaThOmAs · Aug 13, 2015

bobssecrtsn said:
I dont post very much here, just lurk around, but with everything I've read I am stumped with my dosing regime as well as my parameters,

My tank is a 55g total volume with 26 sps corals, frags that are encrusting very well, and growing.

What has happened to my tank was, Without noticing I overdosed my tank with 2 part ( 80ml daily ) and my GFO kept clumping up and turning grey( precipitation)

Now that I have that under control, I decreased my dosage to 20ml daily,

My problem:

My ALK keeps dropping every 15-24 hours and I would have to dose an extra 5-10ml to bump it up,
Well, I've read many sites with randy discussing about the usage of CA/ALK about 18ppm to 2.8Dkh, as well as precipitation and coral demand to nitrogen cycle with ammonia comsuming Alk.

My Calium is doing fine, 450CA the entire 2 weeks I've been measuring,

Here is my parameters
my overall list of alk test dosing 20ml ca/alk daily
8/6 - 7.6Dkh / 450CA - dosed 2.2ml extra for alk
8/7 - 7.6Dkh / 450CA - did not dose any
8/9 - 7PM 6.7Dkh / 450CA - dosed 13.4ml extra for alk
8/9 - 11pm SAME DAY 7.3Dkh / 450CA
8/10 - 7.3Dkh / 450CA - dosed 11.1ml extra for alk/ shut off CA doser
8/11 - 7:30 AM - 7.6Dkh / 450CA
8/11 - 6:30 PM - 7.3Dkh / 430CA - just dosed 5ml extra for alk

from 8/6 - 8/10 MG was @ 1396 and dropped to 1365

Its frustrating right now having to test every day and having alk drop, with CA being the same. any idea what i should do at this point?

I confirmed my dosers are dosing correctly as well, I switched to RSCP blue bucket, as well, tested fresh batch and it was 9dkh, I did a wc but alk did not rise.

Do i have to remove the clumped up sand or precipated objects and remove white film on heaters or pumps?

as well, I recalibrated my refractometer with calibration fluid to 35ppm, bought new b bionic 2 part.

What should i do at this point? i am out of options. Please help me!

This may be a typo but the "blue bucket" is not the Red Sea Coral Pro salt mix. It is the Red Sea Salt standard.The Red Sea Coral Pro salt comes in a black bucket and the calcium, magnesium, and all are higher than the " blue bucket". How long are you mixing the salt for? Red Sea recommends mixing it only for 1-4 hours. I used to mix for 24 hours and get a white precipitate left on my bucket, heater, mixing pump. Now I mix until all crystals are gone and put in tank.

ImageUploadedByREEF2REEF1439519506.219739.jpg

RafaelsReef · Aug 13, 2015

So it's not okay to only dose for alk daily?
I dose b-ionic part 1 to keep my alk between 8.5-9, calcium barely drops 5-10ppm a day. I raise my calcium only when i do a water change.

bobssecrtsn · Aug 14, 2015

NoStRaThOmAs said:
This may be a typo but the "blue bucket" is not the Red Sea Coral Pro salt mix. It is the Red Sea Salt standard.The Red Sea Coral Pro salt comes in a black bucket and the calcium, magnesium, and all are higher than the " blue bucket". How long are you mixing the salt for? Red Sea recommends mixing it only for 1-4 hours. I used to mix for 24 hours and get a white precipitate left on my bucket, heater, mixing pump. Now I mix until all crystals are gone and put in tank.

Yes I use the Standard Blue bucket with Alk levels lower then the PRO. I only mix the salt for maybe 1-2hours max then use, and adding small portions to the fresh RO/DI.

bobssecrtsn · Aug 14, 2015

Randy Holmes-Farley said:
So it looks like the demand is roughly 0.3 dKH per day more than you are dosing.

I might start adding that extra and see what happens after a week.

Hello Randy, Im not sure how much more ML to add to my dose. Can you help me out with it? ATM I'm Dosing 30ml total for 1+2 part, should I go incriments of 5ML or lower?

AdamL1990 · Aug 14, 2015

I'm having kinda the same issue. My magnesium seems to be dropping as low as 1200 but I have it stability now at 1400 but my alk will not increase no matter how much I dose a day. I dose Red Sea reef foundation a/b/c. My alk is at 8.4-9.6ish and my cal is stabil at 435-440. I'm trying to increase my alk by 1.4dkh a day to get it to 12.1dkh being as I have a LpS system with just 3 sps frags. I'm not saying I have a huge parameters problem but it seems the only thing to be dropping is my alk and magnesium. 40gal system total. I dose 2ml of cal a night, 30ml of alk a night to get it to raise but is staying stabil at 8.4-9.6, and I check magnesium every 4 days and seems to be dropping about 200ppm every 4 days. I don't have dosing pumps I do it by hand. I think kinda what my issue is, is that my system is only 70-80 days old so should I be patient and let my system age and at the same time keep up with my dosing and keep an eye on my parameters?

bobssecrtsn · Aug 14, 2015

Hello Adam welcome, With your tank being so new and only a softy tank, you will not need to dose Weekly waterchanges will help maintain your balance, Also I would check your test kits with another to make sure its not bad test kits.

AdamL1990 said:
I'm having kinda the same issue. My magnesium seems to be dropping as low as 1200 but I have it stability now at 1400 but my alk will not increase no matter how much I dose a day. I dose Red Sea reef foundation a/b/c. My alk is at 8.4-9.6ish and my cal is stabil at 435-440. I'm trying to increase my alk by 1.4dkh a day to get it to 12.1dkh being as I have a LpS system with just 3 sps frags. I'm not saying I have a huge parameters problem but it seems the only thing to be dropping is my alk and magnesium. 40gal system total. I dose 2ml of cal a night, 30ml of alk a night to get it to raise but is staying stabil at 8.4-9.6, and I check magnesium every 4 days and seems to be dropping about 200ppm every 4 days. I don't have dosing pumps I do it by hand. I think kinda what my issue is, is that my system is only 70-80 days old so should I be patient and let my system age and at the same time keep up with my dosing and keep an eye on my parameters?

AdamL1990 · Aug 15, 2015

I've been reading for about 3 years and this year I've told myself I would try to go all out with it. You know, get the full experience!! I love it and want to further my knowledge into the hobby. I'm slowly getting the equipment that I've been wanting for a while. I test and dose with Red Sea kits and API for back up just incase I feel a little iffy about something. Plus I'm a perfectionist about certain things so I like my parameters to be spot on. It's awesome testing a few hours later and finding your levels to be point on where you want them. I feel just weekly water changes are so boring lol but thanks for the advise and this is a great information website!