Alkalinity drops 0.7 dKH in 10 hours

[James Kanouff]

Well I have been AFK. You want to hear a story? I have a partner doing a FW show in town this weekend down on I drive. And a order of fish ws placed from California and ended up in Fort lauderdale. YES i drove at 4pm yesterday straight to Fort lauderdale and back again for fish. Three boxes of SW one FW and at about 28 hours in the box only have a few DOA's and now 12 hours later still not looking too bad. I'm very surprised to be honest fish last so long in bags if there done right. Anyway. ill go test ALk now but the data is not worth as much now. I pretty much know where things are and what to expect, but hopefully it helped folks understand what to look for and you can't just check ALK once a month. There is very little value to that data. It moves alot and fast in a reef tank and bad things happen in a few days. Not weeks. there is too many things effecting it. a expert reefer will have a batter grasp on what to look for to indicate an issue as well as a better heart beat on the tanks needs day to day.
An ALK monitor/ controller will pay for it self i think rather quickly in data and stability on most sps tanks over say 50-75 gallons.

 

[Literallyhydro]

Today's evening test: 8.8KH. I'm happier with that reading in the sense it's much closer to the ideal number. I started at 35ml daily and it was creeping up, I dropped it to 20ml and it dropped to 8.8KH. Now I'm going to dose 25ml and see if that maintains it. If the numbers change again, I'll continue to adjust accordingly until it's the same every day.

 

[MnFish1]

Well I have been AFK. You want to hear a story? I have a partner doing a FW show in town this weekend down on I drive. And a order of fish ws placed from California and ended up in Fort lauderdale. YES i drove at 4pm yesterday straight to Fort lauderdale and back again for fish. Three boxes of SW one FW and at about 28 hours in the box only have a few DOA's and now 12 hours later still not looking too bad. I'm very surprised to be honest fish last so long in bags if there done right. Anyway. ill go test ALk now but the data is not worth as much now. I pretty much know where things are and what to expect, but hopefully it helped folks understand what to look for and you can't just check ALK once a month. There is very little value to that data. It moves alot and fast in a reef tank and bad things happen in a few days. Not weeks. there is too many things effecting it. a expert reefer will have a batter grasp on what to look for to indicate an issue as well as a better heart beat on the tanks needs day to day.
An ALK monitor/ controller will pay for it self i think rather quickly in data and stability on most sps tanks over say 50-75 gallons.

what is AFK - I wish people wouldn't use abbreviations on this site that are not common - unless im a dweeb lol

 

[James Kanouff]

AFK "Away from keyboard".
My alkalinity was 8.8 DKH on my HANNA probably 8.5 Salifert not sure didn't test it" when I checked it yesterday midday after my manual correction to current level and amount. That was a Hanna test only. Looks like I have one more test kit of reagent left. My hanna showed it was stable enough to me to use only that test based on what I expected and what it said and what I already knew about my levels the last 7 days. Today I used both kits to confirm daily usage and settle back to weekly or bi weekly tests as I usually do.
today I found 8.3 on sailfert and 8.6 on hanna. And my doser dosed about 12 hours of 100 ml/24 hours on the floor or 50 ml lost. So I redosed that plus about 200 Ml extra to begin traveling back up top 8.9 on sailfert where I want to be. Should be about 9.3 hanna if that instrument averages .3 DKH higher than sailfert. I also adjusted my doser to 120 ml per 24 hours which is my usual amount the last few months. I'll recheck levels tonight and tomorrow as well since I'm around this weekend and have more time. We see if everything gets back n track or not in the next 48 hours.


I think my results showed my HANNA unit to average a bit higher ".3DKH" than The sailfert kit and after about one bottle of reagent I never got more than .2 DKH disagreement in two respective tests, so fairly accurate.
I think my sailfert kit leaves a bit more room for "imagination" and when your reading the level on the syringe you tend to adjust to to the normal you want Vs the exact mark it stops at because your looking for a color end point and sometimes its between the accuracy the drops the dropper allows each drop "which is .02 ML" and the lines that are marked are not exactly tied to the drops it gives. For example my sailfert Syringe has 100 markings and only gives about 50-55 drops. so a drop is about .02 ML making you sort of guess if the drop was more or less than you need to finish the reaction. This effects the users interpretation of the value especially if they have a number target or want to keep a number on there tests. But i still find that its more reliable more cost effective and easier than a HANNA. i don't have to wipe the delicate glass tube fingerprint clean and all that each time i just rinse the Test vial with a bit of rodi n store it after each test. I also reintroduce the unused titrant back into my reagent vial. It seems to have no effect as long as you other wise don't contaminate the Syringe with something. i also over shoot the end point every time with one drop to be sure i saw the end and to try n gain a bit of accuracy from the readings. " if i see a small additional change in color i can know a bit better which side of the .02 variable I was likely on. sometimes you see nothing and know your probably on the lower side of the number you stopped at."

I think my test results showed alkalinity dropping about .1 DKH 9AM to 6pm and about .2 total for a 24 hour period in my tank. My test intervals are not sufficient to show a higher loss during the day light period in my large water volume. Small volume or highly stocked tanks may exaggerate this issue.
I think Alkalinity generally changes pretty quickly in our tanks and alot of variables effect it directly and indirectly making it hard to predict for beginner hobbyist and most hobbyist for that matter. I would NOT say I know exactly what to expect for example, when I change my light bulbs rated to ALK consumption. I would have to test more often after i change my t8's to see if I'm still stable on the current dosing schedule or not. And that involves basically what i just did the last week testing twice a day. When a monitor would just do that and correct it for me before I had to incur the roller coast ALK levels that may happen from a sudden increase in growth from my system using my ALK more than I was used to. For example.

I think the most significant value for a ALK monitor doser type set up is POM "peace of mind" that if my tank does something unexpected the monitor will warn me before I likely notice things are not going as expected. My tank ALK doser line actually popped the check valve piece and was dosing to the floor yesterday half the day. All too common to be honest and why I don't like them. There is alot of little quirks "weeks point maybe" about dosers and probes for that mater. Additional information about how certain things we do with our tanks effect its ALK are valuable and may expose immediate impacts most of us are not aware of with weekly testing of ALK.

 

[MnFish1]

AFK "Away from keyboard".
My alkalinity was 8.8 DKH on my HANNA probably 8.5 Salifert not sure didn't test it" when I checked it yesterday midday after my manual correction to current level and amount. That was a Hanna test only. Looks like I have one more test kit of reagent left. My hanna showed it was stable enough to me to use only that test based on what I expected and what it said and what I already knew about my levels the last 7 days. Today I used both kits to confirm daily usage and settle back to weekly or bi weekly tests as I usually do.
today I found 8.3 on sailfert and 8.6 on hanna. And my doser dosed about 12 hours of 100 ml/24 hours on the floor or 50 ml lost. So I redosed that plus about 200 Ml extra to begin traveling back up top 8.9 on sailfert where I want to be. Should be about 9.3 hanna if that instrument averages .3 DKH higher than sailfert. I also adjusted my doser to 120 ml per 24 hours which is my usual amount the last few months. I'll recheck levels tonight and tomorrow as well since I'm around this weekend and have more time. We see if everything gets back n track or not in the next 48 hours.


I think my results showed my HANNA unit to average a bit higher ".3DKH" than The sailfert kit and after about one bottle of reagent I never got more than .2 DKH disagreement in two respective tests, so fairly accurate.
I think my sailfert kit leaves a bit more room for "imagination" and when your reading the level on the syringe you tend to adjust to to the normal you want Vs the exact mark it stops at because your looking for a color end point and sometimes its between the accuracy the drops the dropper allows each drop "which is .02 ML" and the lines that are marked are not exactly tied to the drops it gives. For example my sailfert Syringe has 100 markings and only gives about 50-55 drops. so a drop is about .02 ML making you sort of guess if the drop was more or less than you need to finish the reaction. This effects the users interpretation of the value especially if they have a number target or want to keep a number on there tests. But i still find that its more reliable more cost effective and easier than a HANNA. i don't have to wipe the delicate glass tube fingerprint clean and all that each time i just rinse the Test vial with a bit of rodi n store it after each test. I also reintroduce the unused titrant back into my reagent vial. It seems to have no effect as long as you other wise don't contaminate the Syringe with something. i also over shoot the end point every time with one drop to be sure i saw the end and to try n gain a bit of accuracy from the readings. " if i see a small additional change in color i can know a bit better which side of the .02 variable I was likely on. sometimes you see nothing and know your probably on the lower side of the number you stopped at."

I think my test results showed alkalinity dropping about .1 DKH 9AM to 6pm and about .2 total for a 24 hour period in my tank. My test intervals are not sufficient to show a higher loss during the day light period in my large water volume. Small volume or highly stocked tanks may exaggerate this issue.
I think Alkalinity generally changes pretty quickly in our tanks and alot of variables effect it directly and indirectly making it hard to predict for beginner hobbyist and most hobbyist for that matter. I would NOT say I know exactly what to expect for example, when I change my light bulbs rated to ALK consumption. I would have to test more often after i change my t8's to see if I'm still stable on the current dosing schedule or not. And that involves basically what i just did the last week testing twice a day. When a monitor would just do that and correct it for me before I had to incur the roller coast ALK levels that may happen from a sudden increase in growth from my system using my ALK more than I was used to. For example.

I think the most significant value for a ALK monitor doser type set up is POM "peace of mind" that if my tank does something unexpected the monitor will warn me before I likely notice things are not going as expected. My tank ALK doser line actually popped the check valve piece and was dosing to the floor yesterday half the day. All too common to be honest and why I don't like them. There is alot of little quirks "weeks point maybe" about dosers and probes for that mater. Additional information about how certain things we do with our tanks effect its ALK are valuable and may expose immediate impacts most of us are not aware of with weekly testing of ALK.

I think that given the margin of error in the tests, you cant tell. In other words you cant base much on these types of measurements. My understanding is that the 'way' to decide how much alk your tank is using is to:

1. Do a measurement (or do 3 of them and average them to decrease the chance of error)
2. Stop dosing alk for 1-3 days.
3. At the same time you did the first measurement do 3 more alk measurements and average them.
4. Subtract the second measurement from the first - and divide by the number of days you stopped dosing - you now know how much alk your tank is using per 24 hours.

 

[Literallyhydro]

I think that given the margin of error in the tests, you cant tell. In other words you cant base much on these types of measurements. My understanding is that the 'way' to decide how much alk your tank is using is to:

1. Do a measurement (or do 3 of them and average them to decrease the chance of error)
2. Stop dosing alk for 1-3 days.
3. At the same time you did the first measurement do 3 more alk measurements and average them.
4. Subtract the second measurement from the first - and divide by the number of days you stopped dosing - you now know how much alk your tank is using per 24 hours.

That is some sound advice to minimize any panic responses. I like this.


Today's ALK test: 8.8. I'll continue observation of this dosing amount for a while to see if it remains stable, but given it's exactly the same as the day before, I think I just about hit the sweet spot.. At least until my corals grow in.

i don't want to make a whole new thread for this one quick question. Is there any importance to the stability of phosphate and nitrate in the reef tank? If so, how does it affect the corals? Whenever I feed my corals, my phosphate will jump from 0.03 to about 0.06. And within a few days is back to 0.03. Is this a bad thing? I know both numbers are deemed acceptable by themselves.

 

[James Kanouff]

I think that given the margin of error in the tests, you cant tell. In other words you cant base much on these types of measurements. My understanding is that the 'way' to decide how much alk your tank is using is to:

1. Do a measurement (or do 3 of them and average them to decrease the chance of error)
2. Stop dosing alk for 1-3 days.
3. At the same time you did the first measurement do 3 more alk measurements and average them.
4. Subtract the second measurement from the first - and divide by the number of days you stopped dosing - you now know how much alk your tank is using per 24 hours.

Would you mind doing that once for your tank and seeing if it equals the amount your dosing? With in a small error factor maybe, and posting results.

I think you will find that once you supply a correct amount of ALk daily or hourly better yet, the amount it self goes up due to increased growth rates from stability. Possibly more so for rates that match hourly consumption Vs daily is an ongoing debate of course and much more time consuming to detect i think. Stability leads to increased consumption rates in it self is a another factor now coming into play. Which will change pretty quickly on a large SPS tank I think after say an ALk spike stunts growth for a week or two. Then sending the tank into a ALk instability cycle as it regains growth and stability and as you test and adjust several times a day possibly if needed to get back to max growth.
I'd say my tank uses about double the ALK solution i dose normally when its really growing good. until something happens like a phosphate spike and growth shuts down ALk over shoots and it starts a rollercoaster of catch up. Its hard to tell because of so many factors and not enough testing to find it fast enough and address it. I have basically sold my self 100% on a monitor and I'm deciding which one suits me best still. I think the Ph probe is the weak link on the KH guardian. But dual junction probes are far more stable and reliable i think, and thats an easy upgrade. Vs upgrading my entire APEX system to the new system for the Trident.

I think that too many things like-
A clogged or clogging doser line
A weak doser head
A inconsistent batch of salt on a WC
A different strength solution of ALK solution
A increased/ decreased uptake of ALK
Example .....
Example.....
Will all have you going thru ALk test kits and adjusting things far more often in terms of hours n dollars per day spent on it than a monitor cost at this point. I see too many things change my Alkalinity that I can't predict and its cost me for sure. I do see significant differences between a dosed tank and a non dosed tank. We know there using up ALK fairy quickly. So dosing is something i think needs done on my system, but thus far has been as problematic as it has been beneficial. Problems most of which would have been caught by a monitor much faster than I found/noticed them. Again that is the value to me. Clearly just the testing method alone leaves a ton of room for error. Why not reduce that to possible .1-.05 dKH if possible. Not to mention time testing four times a day and POM "peace of mind".
I'm interested in the other correlation possibly discovered as well, like how a skimmer/ large refugium effects ALK possibly.

 

[MnFish1]

Would you mind doing that once for your tank and seeing if it equals the amount your dosing? With in a small error factor maybe, and posting results.

I think you will find that once you supply a correct amount of ALk daily or hourly better yet, the amount it self goes up due to increased growth rates from stability. Possibly more so for rates that match hourly consumption Vs daily is an ongoing debate of course and much more time consuming to detect i think. Stability leads to increased consumption rates in it self is a another factor now coming into play. Which will change pretty quickly on a large SPS tank I think after say an ALk spike stunts growth for a week or two. Then sending the tank into a ALk instability cycle as it regains growth and stability and as you test and adjust several times a day possibly if needed to get back to max growth.
I'd say my tank uses about double the ALK solution i dose normally when its really growing good. until something happens like a phosphate spike and growth shuts down ALk over shoots and it starts a rollercoaster of catch up. Its hard to tell because of so many factors and not enough testing to find it fast enough and address it. I have basically sold my self 100% on a monitor and I'm deciding which one suits me best still. I think the Ph probe is the weak link on the KH guardian. But dual junction probes are far more stable and reliable i think, and thats an easy upgrade. Vs upgrading my entire APEX system to the new system for the Trident.

I think that too many things like-
A clogged or clogging doser line
A weak doser head
A inconsistent batch of salt on a WC
A different strength solution of ALK solution
A increased/ decreased uptake of ALK
Example .....
Example.....
Will all have you going thru ALk test kits and adjusting things far more often in terms of hours n dollars per day spent on it than a monitor cost at this point. I see too many things change my Alkalinity that I can't predict and its cost me for sure. I do see significant differences between a dosed tank and a non dosed tank. We know there using up ALK fairy quickly. So dosing is something i think needs done on my system, but thus far has been as problematic as it has been beneficial. Problems most of which would have been caught by a monitor much faster than I found/noticed them. Again that is the value to me. Clearly just the testing method alone leaves a ton of room for error. Why not reduce that to possible .1-.05 dKH if possible. Not to mention time testing four times a day and POM "peace of mind".
I'm interested in the other correlation possibly discovered as well, like how a skimmer/ large refugium effects ALK possibly.

I think you're making assumptions based on assumptions.

1. What is 'stability' - if the margin of error of a test is .3 dKH for example - stability is anything between 8.3 and 8.9. If you are using a more precise method, it is smaller.
2. What degree of 'stability' matters. For example - is it really 'better' to try to control alk on an hourly basis as compared to perhaps checking it every 3-5 days and adjusting dosing slowly? Certainly we all agree that if your alkalinity decreases >`1 dKH over 24 hours (or increases), thats a problem. But - Im not sure that (besides anecdote) that controlling Alk within a .05-.1 dkh is all that beneficial - and risks problems if that tight control is upset somehow. I dose alk every hour 24 hours/day in divided doses based on the average consumption. If I find the alk 'trending' higher than I want - or lower than I want I decrease or increase the dosing by 10% and recheck in a couple days.
3. Are you talking about using 'test kits' or a monitor. If a person is taking the time to get a monitor (and spend the money on it), of course it makes sense to test more often. If a person is using test kits, Im not sure it makes sense to test more than once/day - I do it less than that. (i.e. if you're trying to say - it makes more sense to get a monitor than using test kits - ok - but, I wouldn't use test kits that often.


Lastly, the way I determined the initial dose to use was to use the 'experiment above'. This is the standard method (from what I've read) to determine how much alk to dose. I dont have the results still - but I can say - that I believe that (using the BRS calculator and BRS alk solutions) that the initial starting dose for my tank should be 75ml/day. Its now up to 110 ml day over 6 months - probably due to the growth and addition of new corals.