Alkalinity rising?

[jurgenph]

Real Reef Rock (the product) was used. It was absolutely covered in GHA for quite some time due to using Triton and having an algae bed that was of insufficient size (in my opinion). I believe the rock became clogged up and saturated with phosphate but I now seem to have pulled it out based on the reaction of the GHA. It took about 6 months and is now disappearing rapidly.

FWIW... i once setup a tank with this artificial purple painted rock, and was not able to keep my Alk down. it just kept creeping up to levels where i needed to do water changes to get my alk to come down. it drove me nuts.

as soon as i removed those painted rocks, my alk became stable.

EDIT: wow... i just noticed that i replied to an ancient post
anyway... i'll leave it here, just in case anyone has the same problem.


J.

 

[Cory]

Can overdosing amino acids be the primary cause for elevated organics in the sand, (causing the ph to drop in the sand and dissolve the aragonite)?

Not likely but can be the cause for elevated nitrates.

 

[andarre]

I know this is an ancient thread but I'm having the same exact issue which has started in the last month or so. Alk will be at 8.0 after water change on Saturdays and will slowly creep up to 8.5 or 8.7 in 7 days when I change the water again (15% each time).

I tried changing salts to see if this would help and it didn't (TMPR to Brightwell Neomarine).

I started with MarcoRocks bought from Marine Depot and Caribsea Aragalive Special Grade.

Calcium is rock steady at 410 and Mag is always around 1400 to 1450. pH stays around 8.0 as well, dipping to 7.8 at night.

I don't dose anything other than Microbacter 7 to keep my nutrients from rising (po4 at .1ppm and no3 at 7ppm).

All parameters are tested using dual kits (red sea and salifert) and confirmation from LFS if I'm iffy on anything (they use LaMotte and Hach tests).

Having the same issue with coral as well, everything is alive with good color, but not growing with the exception of a Slow Burn Monti cap that has encrusted over the frag plug and is starting to plate out.

Tank has been up for close to 9 months now and it's 40gal total system volume (24gal DT, 16 gal sump)

What may be the issue? Willing to try almost anything at this point other than removing sand and rocks unfortunately.

 

[sgrosenb]

@andarre sounds like you've got almost the exact same issues and tank progression I had. Good news is, my tank is thriving now. Two questions for you, in order of importance: 1) Did you use any live rock when you set up your tank, or was it all dead? 2) what lighting are you using?

I can try helping to troubleshoot from there.

 

[andarre]

@andarre sounds like you've got almost the exact same issues and tank progression I had. Good news is, my tank is thriving now. Two questions for you, in order of importance: 1) Did you use any live rock when you set up your tank, or was it all dead? 2) what lighting are you using?

I can try helping to troubleshoot from there.

No sir, all dead rock seeded with 3 types of bacteria (dr. tims, fritz turbo start and brightwell). Light is a Radion XR15 G5 Pro on a modified AB+ schedule for a little more white.

 

[sgrosenb]

You've got the exact same setup that I do. I started with dead rock and dead sand and my tank went nowhere for over a year. I would strongly, strongly encourage you to get some live rock and add it to your system. That's what got my tank kicked into gear and thriving.

Also - how big/deep is your tank and how many XR15's are you using? My tank is 5x2x2 and I started with a Hybrid LED / T5 system with 3 XR15's. I had very little coral growth, but good coralline algae and good colors. I then added a 4th XR15. Still no growth. I then added two more XR15's (total of 6), raised them up a few inches further from the surface (currently roughly 12 inches from surface) and growth took off. I attribute the growth to a) time (I waited 12+ months after adding live rock to my tank before I saw good results... that's after having the tank up for 12 months prior with dead rock... so I'm at 2.5 years now) b) live rock - the bacteria in live rock cannot be replicated in a bottle - I'm a firm believer of that; and c) lighting - much better PAR, coverage, etc with the extra two lights. I've read time and time again that growth has a lot to do with lights (as well as other parameters - make sure your pH is really what you think it is - when I leave for vacation my growth takes off because my pH skyrockets. It's quite noticeable.

I had people tell me that 3 XR15's should be plenty, and I had people tell me I needed 6. I finally graduated to 6 and it's working really well. Obviously not cheap but I'm in too deep to not go the extra step.

For live rock - I ordered mine from KP Aquatics and it was great. I'm lucky enough to live near them so I picked it up, still in water, and put it right into my tank. Looks like you're in FL - KP is in Key Largo. Tons of sponges, critters, etc. If you're weary of hitchhikers, dump as much as you can in your sump. That's the #1 thing, other than time and patience, that I think will help you.

Hope this helps!

 

[andarre]

You've got the exact same setup that I do. I started with dead rock and dead sand and my tank went nowhere for over a year. I would strongly, strongly encourage you to get some live rock and add it to your system. That's what got my tank kicked into gear and thriving.

Also - how big/deep is your tank and how many XR15's are you using? My tank is 5x2x2 and I started with a Hybrid LED / T5 system with 3 XR15's. I had very little coral growth, but good coralline algae and good colors. I then added a 4th XR15. Still no growth. I then added two more XR15's (total of 6), raised them up a few inches further from the surface (currently roughly 12 inches from surface) and growth took off. I attribute the growth to a) time (I waited 12+ months after adding live rock to my tank before I saw good results... that's after having the tank up for 12 months prior with dead rock... so I'm at 2.5 years now) b) live rock - the bacteria in live rock cannot be replicated in a bottle - I'm a firm believer of that; and c) lighting - much better PAR, coverage, etc with the extra two lights. I've read time and time again that growth has a lot to do with lights (as well as other parameters - make sure your pH is really what you think it is - when I leave for vacation my growth takes off because my pH skyrockets. It's quite noticeable.

I had people tell me that 3 XR15's should be plenty, and I had people tell me I needed 6. I finally graduated to 6 and it's working really well. Obviously not cheap but I'm in too deep to not go the extra step.

For live rock - I ordered mine from KP Aquatics and it was great. I'm lucky enough to live near them so I picked it up, still in water, and put it right into my tank. Looks like you're in FL - KP is in Key Largo. Tons of sponges, critters, etc. If you're weary of hitchhikers, dump as much as you can in your sump. That's the #1 thing, other than time and patience, that I think will help you.

Hope this helps!

I appreciate the reply! I will definitely hit up KP. I've passed them on US-1 a million times coming and going to the lower keys.

My tank is a 17x17x17 cube and par over the top of the highest point can go upwards of 300 if I've got the lights at 80% and around 150 to 200 at the sand bed. This is with the standard Radion mount at 8ish inches above the surface of the water. I thought about supplementing with a couple of T5's but I'm not sure I should go that route yet...

I will definitely get more rock in the sump and in the tank. Hitchhikers wouldn't be an issue honestly. I can put the rock in a tub and get all the nasties out.

What's funny is that I really did think to put some live rock in my system somehow for more diversity. I wanted to hit up my local LFS' and see what they had but the majority don't have live rock anymore, just dead base rock unfortunately. Makes me think I was on the right track with that train of thought...

 

[andarre]

And you are 100% correct @sgrosenb , no amount of bottled bacteria can ever replace what we can get from the ocean!

 

[sgrosenb]

Good stuff. Get some rock from KP - he's a good dude. 300 PAR max is a little low IMO depending on what sps you're growing- maybe consider selling the XR15 amd getting an XR30. I like to bake the corals with as much light as they can take; you'll know quickly (24-48 hours) if you've got too much light, and with LEDs you can always dial it down. That, in combination with some live rock and stable parameters should have you rocking and rolling in 6 months. I'm no expert, but if there's one thing I've learned, it's that stability and time are the two most important variables in success with SPS.

And circling back to your original question about alkalinity rising - once your corals start growing and demanding more, you won't have to worry about KH rising.

Cheers

 

[sgrosenb]

Also - make sure that you don't kill too much beneficial bacteria getting the critters out. I literally picked up the live rock, still in water, from KP, and within 2 hours had it all in my (established, 12 month old) tank. No cycle no ammonia no nothing. I had to catch a few gorilla crabs but other than that its been awesome.

 

[andarre]

Good stuff. Get some rock from KP - he's a good dude. 300 PAR max is a little low IMO depending on what sps you're growing- maybe consider selling the XR15 amd getting an XR30. I like to bake the corals with as much light as they can take; you'll know quickly (24-48 hours) if you've got too much light, and with LEDs you can always dial it down. That, in combination with some live rock and stable parameters should have you rocking and rolling in 6 months. I'm no expert, but if there's one thing I've learned, it's that stability and time are the two most important variables in success with SPS.

And circling back to your original question about alkalinity rising - once your corals start growing and demanding more, you won't have to worry about KH rising.

Cheers

Oof, scary... Ok, I'll turn up the lights and see what happens. I can add the T5's too if need be.

The coral consuming the KH makes obvious sense. I just thought with what I have in my tank atm, I wouldn't have this issue or even think to have this issue.

Also - make sure that you don't kill too much beneficial bacteria getting the critters out. I literally picked up the live rock, still in water, from KP, and within 2 hours had it all in my (established, 12 month old) tank. No cycle no ammonia no nothing. I had to catch a few gorilla crabs but other than that its been awesome.

That would be my situation as well. I'm a lot closer too so it would really be about an hour from KP to my house.

The gorilla crabs do freak me out a bit, I'm not gonna lie... lol. I've been pinched by a few crabs looking under rocks by the bridges in Islamorada and Marathon for small ones to use as bait. Those jerks pack a punch.

I can't thank you enough man. I really appreciate the advice and I will stick to it. I'll post an update when I see things moving in the right direction! Who knows, maybe I can throw you a frag or two when things start to grow out! ;Happy

 

[andarre]

@sgrosenb Picked up about 7lbs of the rock yesterday and added it to my sump and DT and haven't seen any crabs other than a very small one that is definitely not a gorilla or any other crab that may pose a problem like a Sally lightfoot or a stone crab. I was up until 2am last night with a red flashlight looking at all of the stuff in the rocks.

The amount of life on these rocks is unreal. Tunicates, sponges, tiny encrusting coral, some weird puffball looking things that have mouths that react to light, and something else which I have no idea about. It was spitting out these looong clear strings that would attach to the sand and any other surface and then retract back when it grabbed hold of something. Never seen that on the TBS rock I had in my previous tank about 15 years ago.

Sorry for the rambling just super excited about it all. Thanks again!

 

[sgrosenb]

Great to hear @andarre ! I agree there is so much life on those rocks - it really adds another element to the tank. There are likely many more creatures deep inside the holes that you'll never see; I believe these are a key component to keeping a long, healthy tank. They clean out the rocks, help with nutrients, etc.

I'll be interested to hear when you start to have stable (or declining) alkalinity.

Cheers!

 

[andarre]

Great to hear @andarre ! I agree there is so much life on those rocks - it really adds another element to the tank. There are likely many more creatures deep inside the holes that you'll never see; I believe these are a key component to keeping a long, healthy tank. They clean out the rocks, help with nutrients, etc.

I'll be interested to hear when you start to have stable (or declining) alkalinity.

Cheers!

Welp, 5 days later and I'm down to 7.9dKh from a high of 9.1. pH is stable at 8.1 and calcium is dropping about 10ppm per day. Exactly what I was hoping for! Amazing what some live rock can do! Thank you again!

 

[sgrosenb]

Welp, 5 days later and I'm down to 7.9dKh from a high of 9.1. pH is stable at 8.1 and calcium is dropping about 10ppm per day. Exactly what I was hoping for! Amazing what some live rock can do! Thank you again!

Awesome @andarre ! Post some pics of your progression if you can! Cheers

 

[DavidinGA]

Just found this post and I'm having the exact issues expressed here. No matter what I do my Alk just keeps creeping back up.

Guess maybe I need to check for cement or fake rocks in my setup? I bought all my LR used, so who knows what's in there exactly...

 

[DavidinGA]

Any suggestions on how to ID possible "bad" rocks? I was thinking of just pulling out pieces I suspect and toss them in a container by themselves and see if the Alk rises in that container. Any better way to do it?

 

[reefiniteasy]

I experienced rising Alk recently. Turns out in coincided with the addition of an algae scrubber. So I attribute the rising Alk to a reduction in nitrate.

 

[DavidinGA]

I experienced rising Alk recently. Turns out in coincided with the addition of an algae scrubber. So I attribute the rising Alk to a reduction in nitrate.

I also run an ATS, but it will only move Alk a little.

I take my Alk down to 8 through water changes (and a bunch of muriatic acid) and it will creep back up to 10 within a month. With zero dosing of any kind. It's ridiculous.

 

[DavidinGA]

Hypothetical, how long could cement/artificial rock contribute to increase Alk?

The rock I have I bought used and it had been used for years prior (supposedly).

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Randy Holmes-Farley