Almost 3 years with no answer. Until today.

I’m a central florida local as well. What are your other parameters? I personally don’t think 0.1ppm phosphate is a reason why your corals aren’t doing well. I personally wouldn’t be concerned with your phosphate levels.
Oh cool. Where do you live?
Yeah, I know I have other problems too. I am in the process of buying some 2 part. So far I have 1 part of the 2 part. I still need to pick up some calcium chloride. BRS is currently out of stock. I have everything else. Then I can start dosing.

The last time I tested my parameters I was at
Alkalinity= 8.4dKH
Calcium= 350ppm
Magnesium= 1400ppm

One of the tests in my feed Sea test kits were bad. I believe it was the magnesium although I might be wrong. Anyway I just bought a new test kit so I have to retest again.
 
.1 isn’t a big deal. If it were me, I wouldn’t waste money trying to lower it with anything but water changes.
Yeah, what I really need is my own RODI unit. Then I can control everything and do more frequent water changes. I just can't afford it right now.
 
I only have 2 corals left. To be honest, they are just surviving. Not thriving. I have a Duncan and some palys. Nothing is growing or looking good.

.1 is not a terrible number for PO4. Remember keep it simple.... use a clean up crew (Turbo snails, Trochus, etc..) to maintain algae. GFO and similar products can really do a lot of harm if used incorrectly. If you strip your nutrients there’s a very good chance that dinos, cyano, etc... will bloom and I would take GHA over those any day!
 
So you mean something is right in my fishtank. It's a miracle.


I don't have room for a refugium in my 45. You are correct that I cannot afford a turf algae scrubber. I have never used any chemicals in my tank. I'm not sure if that is a good thing or bad thing. I do not own any kind of media reactors although I do have some rowaphos on hand. I have been doing water changes once a month only because I cannot afford to make my own water so I am doing it the old school way. I have to travel almost an hour to WWC to get my water. If I had the means to produce my own water I would do more frequent water changes.
You'll hear time and time again that unless you are at 0.03 it's too high and you'll get algae and all your corals will die in 10 seconds but in reality alot of people (me included) run anywhere between 0.05 and 0.15 or even higher. It all depends on the reef and the corals. Also it's important to pick a realistic value and keep it stable.
 
Oh cool. Where do you live?
Yeah, I know I have other problems too. I am in the process of buying some 2 part. So far I have 1 part of the 2 part. I still need to pick up some calcium chloride. BRS is currently out of stock. I have everything else. Then I can start dosing.

The last time I tested my parameters I was at
Alkalinity= 8.4dKH
Calcium= 350ppm
Magnesium= 1400ppm

One of the tests in my feed Sea test kits were bad. I believe it was the magnesium although I might be wrong. Anyway I just bought a new test kit so I have to retest again.

I’m just outside of Lakeland on the Bartow side. Any ideas what your nitrates (NO3) are at?
 
.1 is not a terrible number for PO4. Remember keep it simple.... use a clean up crew (Turbo snails, Trochus, etc..) to maintain algae. GFO and similar products can really do a lot of harm if used incorrectly. If you strip your nutrients there’s a very good chance that dinos, cyano, etc... will bloom and I would take GHA over those any day!
Thanks for the advice. My cleanup crew is pretty non existent right now. For some reason I can keep anything alive long enough and just got tired of throwing money out the door. Snails always die so quickly for me. I can only keep them alive for maybe a month if I'm lucky. The only snails that live in my tank are 2 nassarius snails that I have since day 1. Other than that, no luck.
 
Rowaphos is GFO, just from Germany & you should have a reactor to us it, BUT, in a pinch you can run it in a fine bag as long as the water flows through it..
It can get hard if not tumbled.
 
.1 isn’t a big deal. If it were me, I wouldn’t waste money trying to lower it with anything but water changes.

Water changes are actually an incredibly poor (and expensive) way to reduce phosphate. Even a 100% change might have only a minor effect (unlike nitrate, which it takes away almost completely) due the the very large fraction of phosphate that is bound to rock and sand.

I'm not suggesting the OP needs to lower it, but if he does, water changes are not my recommendation.

IMO, 0.1 ppm is OK, and getting to low is much worse than staying at that level.
 
I only have 2 corals left. To be honest, they are just surviving. Not thriving. I have a Duncan and some palys. Nothing is growing or looking good.

that Duncan must be related to mine. I’ve had 2 complete crashes and my Duncan was the ONLY coral out of hundreds to survive...
 
Water changes are actually an incredibly poor (and expensive) way to reduce phosphate. Even a 100% change might have only a minor effect (unlike nitrate, which it takes away almost completely) due the the very large fraction of phosphate that is bound to rock and sand.

I'm not suggesting the OP needs to lower it, but if he does, water changes are not my recommendation.

IMO, 0.1 ppm is OK, and getting to low is much worse than staying at that level.

How could a 100% change only have a minor effect? The .1 he is getting is obviously the amount in the water. It would have to reduce it until the rocks and sand leached more out. With .1 not being all that elevated in the first place I think water changes are fine to keep it under control instead of dealing with the hassles of phosphate reducers. For me at least, if my phosphate was .1 on a tank that size, I’d rather do water changes and get the additional benefits of water changes than to deal with GFO or Lanthanum.
 
The PO4 Value isn't something you should Actively Chase. Worst thing you can do. I know, I did it and I paid the price (Damaged Corals).

Stable PO4 is most imporant!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (Quick Drops are most damaging)

I've had my Tank Phosphate at 0.35-0.4 range, even as high at .5ppm (BUT STABLE), maybe higher, and this is what it looked like.

KitchenLPSmixed90Gal.jpg

This tank thrived and still does in Filthly High Levels of Nitrate (50) and Phosphates (0.5) (BUT STABLE!!)
Just a SKimmer. No Carbon, No GFO, 2 Part Dosing for ALK,CALC, and Mag.
However that tank was LPS, Mushrooms, and NO SPS.




Then My other Tank (ONLY SPS),
I had problems with. PO around 0.3.
I found and struggled to get PO4 down, and destroyed Frag after Frag (SPS).
NOTHING IS WORSE for SPS than YO-YO phosphate levels. (as you inconsitantly fight the natural level of your Tank Filtration)

Eventually (3+ months ago) I took some advice from a Experience SPS grower and he recommened PO4 between 0.05 to 0.09 (Under 0.1, but stable).

I could ony achieve that using GFO (Quality RhowaPhos). Small amount but every 2 weeks (Religeously).
Small amount of carbon (all the time...NOT TOO MUCH!! )
That got my PO4 Stable at 0.06, and things took off.

NO SPS deaths. Frags Encrusting, Corals Coloring up, and Great PE.

2020-05-14_FTS-SPS-Small.jpg


However just to mention. P04 is just part of one Stability you need right.
ALK is just as imporant is not more imporant. Good to keep all other Parameter Stable (CALC, MAG, and NO3)
Water changes, to keep Trace Elements replenished (and export toxins) is another positive step.

Also all this improvement was achieve by NOT adding any junk to tank.
Only food for fish, to make POOP to feed Corals.

NO Coral Feeding, NO Aminos (A bad past habit of mine, that was worst thing I ever did. Short term Positive, long term NEGATIVE side-effects).

SUMMARY: Don't Chase Numbers People Throw at you. A Work on Achiving Stablity, and that worth the effort and not a easy task (Especially if you tank is not years mature)
 
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How could a 100% change only have a minor effect? The .1 he is getting is obviously the amount in the water. It would have to reduce it until the rocks and sand leached more out. With .1 not being all that elevated in the first place I think water changes are fine to keep it under control instead of dealing with the hassles of phosphate reducers. For me at least, if my phosphate was .1 on a tank that size, I’d rather do water changes and get the additional benefits of water changes than to deal with GFO or Lanthanum.

Here's how. The vast majority of the available phosphate is likely attached to rock and sand. It can rapidly come on and off. Binding is not a long, slow process. Just like binding to GFO or aluminum oxide phosphate binders.

One member did an experiment and he had to add more than 50 ppm phosphate before he could get 0.1 ppm to stay in the water. That was dry dead rock, and is certainly a worst cast, but it exemplifies the issue. many otehrs who are now dosing phosphate see the same. They determine how much to add to get 0.03 ppm, but need to add that many times to actually get that much to be stable in the water.

The same happens in reverse if you try to remove the phosphate, by water change or any other way. You have a lot to remove from the rock and sand before a lower value will be stable.
 
Here's how. The vast majority of the available phosphate is likely attached to rock and sand. It can rapidly come on and off. Binding is not a long, slow process. Just like binding to GFO or aluminum oxide phosphate binders.

One member did an experiment and he had to add more than 50 ppm phosphate before he could get 0.1 ppm to stay in the water. That was dry dead rock, and is certainly a worst cast, but it exemplifies the issue. many otehrs who are now dosing phosphate see the same. They determine how much to add to get 0.03 ppm, but need to add that many times to actually get that much to be stable in the water.

The same happens in reverse if you try to remove the phosphate, by water change or any other way. You have a lot to remove from the rock and sand before a lower value will be stable.
I totally agree, and read a article you wrote a while ago, about how it takes longer and longer to get PO4 to lower Stable levels as Rocks take longer to leach out lower levels of PO4 (since difference between Levels in Rock and water is less).
That article got me thinking PO4 drop isn't a quick thing, but and very slow process (That mentality is what got me to Lower Stable PO4). Patience, and Persistence.

However what you say above is that binding (or leach out) isn't slow. So did I misunderstand things? (Maybe what you mean is BINDING and LEACHING is two different things. Binding is QUICK (like in GFO/Resins). Leaching is SLOW (like in rock and Sand).
 
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My tank runs at 0.00 Phosphates and algae is pretty much non existent in my tank. I feed heavy though so nitrates hang around 10 to 20
 
Water changes are actually an incredibly poor (and expensive) way to reduce phosphate. Even a 100% change might have only a minor effect (unlike nitrate, which it takes away almost completely) due the the very large fraction of phosphate that is bound to rock and sand.

I'm not suggesting the OP needs to lower it, but if he does, water changes are not my recommendation.

IMO, 0.1 ppm is OK, and getting to low is much worse than staying at that level.
So what are you suggesting I do?
 
I totally agree, and read a article you wrote a while ago, about how it takes longer and longer to get PO4 to lower Stable levels as Rocks take longer to leach out lower levels of PO4 (since difference between Levels in Rock and water is less).
That article got me thinking PO4 drop isn't a quick thing, but and very slow process (That mentality is what got me to Lower Stable PO4). Patience, and Persistence.

However what you say above is that binding (or leach out) isn't slow. So did I misunderstand things? (Maybe what you mean is BINDING and LEACHING is two different things. Binding is QUICK (like in GFO/Resins). Leaching is SLOW (like in rock and Sand).

Binding and releasing of phosphate to a flat mineral surface is not particularly slow. It equilibrates fairly fast. Most of it will take place in a few minutes of contact with a flat surface and then finish up over a period of a few hours, in both directions. This data has been published for absorption on iron oxide and calcium carbonate (oyster shell) surfaces, for example, but the release is also fairly fast.



from the oyster shell one:

" The results showed that the equilibrium occurred in 10 min and the equilibrium data followed the Freundlich isotherm. "

This article discusses desorption kinetics from calcite. Most of it is fast (less than an hour):


Live rock and sand, however, are not so readily exposed. Pores in the rock, deeper particles in the sand all take substantial time for the phosphate to make its way to (or from) the mineral surface. Thus there is a slowness to it that will depend on the natural of the exposed of the phosphate to the calcium carbonate.
 
Binding and releasing of phosphate to a flat mineral surface is not particularly slow. It equilibrates fairly fast. Most of it will take place in a few minutes of contact with a flat surface and then finish up over a period of a few hours, in both directions. This data has been published for absorption on iron oxide and calcium carbonate (oyster shell) surfaces, for example, but the release is also fairly fast.



from the oyster shell one:

" The results showed that the equilibrium occurred in 10 min and the equilibrium data followed the Freundlich isotherm. "

This article discusses desorption kinetics from calcite. Most of it is fast (less than an hour):


Live rock and sand, however, are not so readily exposed. Pores in the rock, deeper particles in the sand all take substantial time for the phosphate to make its way to (or from) the mineral surface. Thus there is a slowness to it that will depend on the natural of the exposed of the phosphate to the calcium carbonate.
Understood. So it's the Phsyical Structure (pores in rocks, etc) that slows things down (Both ways. IN[Built up] and OUT[Leaching] )
This probably applies not only to Phosphates. Silicon, Alluminum....Possibly Nitrates....However with Nitrates we have Denitrifying Bacterial in those tiny Rock Pores, and they consume it (What makes Quality Porous Rock & Media Great).

So I wonder. I have Products like Marine Pure Bio Media and Seachem Matrix in my System. They probably have similar properties to Live Rock for holding and releasing Phosphate.
 
I also had the salifert test show zero everytime. When I finally got a Hanna, it shows right around 0.1 everytime
 

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