Am I crazy for thinking MH + t5 ?

[Velcro]

I've heard that hamilton's halide bulbs have increased significantly in quality in the last few years.

 

[BoomCorals]

I've used halide before, even over a frag tank once long ago. My friend has a halide T5 frag tank I've measured par on with the seneye, and he gets great numbers, in a range of 300-400 across the frag tank. He has a giesemann. Lack of shadowing doesn't mean much if my acros are only getting 100 par.

And yes, the bulbs need a few days, but they aren't going to triple or quadruple their output in that time (that kind of increase is unheard of for bulb burn in far as I know).

I appreciate the advice but I think it's either something wrong with the fixture OR that this fixture won't work in a frag tank application. The latter I guess is possible, I just didn't expect that based upon reviews. I even found an RC thread where someone had this exact fixture over the exact same dimensions frag tank as me and got great par. But he was using radiums with luxcore.

As someone else mentioned, I'm not sure how long you let the bulbs 'burn in' before whipping out the PAR meter, but you really need to chill and give them a few days to warm up so to speak. I've never had a DE or SE halide produce it's proper numbers on the first firing. Day 2 or 3 is the soonest I'd be comfortable trusting any output from a new metal halide bulb.

That said, I don't want to bash Hamilton and I think they make a fine product, but having experienced their T5s and SE halide bulbs in person on some of my customer tanks they were underwhelming to say the least. Swap for the M80s and Radiums and you won't be disappointed. Providing there's no mechanical wiring problem with your fixture, upgrading to a Radiums or a higher end halide with magnetic ballasts and ATI T5s will be a revelation compared to the stock components on that system.

Also, because of the way halide reflectors work you really should not put much stock in readings 7-12" below the fixture in air. Once operating with proper bulbs and ballasts use your PAR meter in the growing zone of your frag tank and raise and lower the light til you get an even, proper PAR level across the majority of you tank. The supreme light diffusion and lack of shadowing that the reflector type systems offer will absolutely crush most LED arrays firing out of 1 or 2 fixed points above the tank. It's not always about the peak PAR, but very much to do with the useable light that's reaching the edges and undersides of coral branches that makes the difference with 'old school lighting systems' This diffusion effect is why T5 is so darn effective at producing those perfectly shaped coral colonies. It's all about even light spread.

Congrats on the new setup and best of luck with troubleshooting!

 

[BoomCorals]

Hrm, I've returned an opened reefbrite XHO. Honestly, the spectra and the hamilton IMO is the wrong form factor for a frag tank. Neither excels at being high from the waterline.

I could lower it more but I've seen t5 halide fixtures work well in frag tank applications before. The only reason they usually get hung so high is so as to not fry the coral since they are all 2-4" below the water line. And in fact at those heights they usually provide incredibly even par spread.

 

[mcarroll]

And yes, a poor ballast will do that. @mcarrol had one with crazy low mh readings.

I have a 150w Cora life that puts out a lot more than that.

(That was old expired Radiums....they are all I have to use for measurements. I have the same 150w Coralife ballasts as you actually. And I dunno about you, but my Coralife fixture has nice little DE reflectors in it compared to this fixture.)

It is also possible that you're not far enough away at 7" to for the sensor to "see" all the light.

I know the Seneye has a very narrow lens on its sensor....40º or something? Maybe more narrow than that – I can't remember for sure. I'm also not sure if they're good for reading out of water?

Also, this is not really a reflector since it's not angled and simply painted white inside vs mirrored.

I would definitely talk to Hamilton (and maybe Seneye too) before doing anything about it, but I think this could be normal. I suspect either of the single-bulb reflectors that got linked early on will be the better bet.

@BoomCorals Does the ballast seem to be pulling the correct amount of power from the wall??

 

[rockskimmerflow]

I've used halide before, even over a frag tank once long ago. My friend has a halide T5 frag tank I've measured par on with the seneye, and he gets great numbers, in a range of 300-400 across the frag tank. He has a giesemann. Lack of shadowing doesn't mean much if my acros are only getting 100 par.

And yes, the bulbs need a few days, but they aren't going to triple or quadruple their output in that time (that kind of increase is unheard of for bulb burn in far as I know).

I appreciate the advice but I think it's either something wrong with the fixture OR that this fixture won't work in a frag tank application. The latter I guess is possible, I just didn't expect that based upon reviews. I even found an RC thread where someone had this exact fixture over the exact same dimensions frag tank as me and got great par. But he was using radiums with luxcore.

Very well could be something wrong with the fixture, but I think your expectations of a non focussed reflector with stock bulbs/ballasts were a little too high. No way to know for sure what it is at this early stage, but I suspect it could be combo of new bulbs, rather poor quality bulbs, and a reflector design that does not especially concentrate the light. I'd give lowering the light to about 12-14" off the water a shot and see what PAR you're getting with it after a full burn in. I honestly wouldn't expect much more than an underwater 200-250 average with that fixture. It's just not designed to be a PAR monster with the reflector type the cebu sun uses. An ATI 6 or 8x54w would throw will throw way more PAR than the Cebu so don't be alarmed if you aren't hitting 350-450 when it's dialed in. That fixture likely won't ever put up those numbers.

And lack of shadowing means a ton if you can get 250 PAR on a highly diffuse system vs 400 PAR with an LED that has heavy shadowing. Cooking the upper branch surfaces of acros with more and more PAR won't yield much past their point of photoinhibition, but hitting 50 percent more surface area of the coral with useable light is a very big deal. Your alkalinity uptake will tell the story once you get the system dialed in. Hope you get this figured out soon.

 

[jporter17]

If you are considering Halides these are very energy efficient and run relatively cool without any fans. Three of these would cover 72" set up no problem and due to their light weight compact design (15" L by 8" W by 4 3/4" H) would mount in a canopy no problem. They are also available without the LED's or can be purchased as three individual pendants and you can mount two 60" XHO LED units using the stock brackets for the Halide Hybrids.

I run the 36” hybrid unit modified with 2 T5’s and a RB moon light. Awesome fixture and more than enough power to grow anything. JP

 

[A. grandis]

Very well could be something wrong with the fixture, but I think your expectations of a non focussed reflector with stock bulbs/ballasts were a little too high. No way to know for sure what it is at this early stage, but I suspect it could be combo of new bulbs, rather poor quality bulbs, and a reflector design that does not especially concentrate the light. I'd give lowering the light to about 12-14" off the water a shot and see what PAR you're getting with it after a full burn in. I honestly wouldn't expect much more than an underwater 200-250 average with that fixture. It's just not designed to be a PAR monster with the reflector type the cebu sun uses. An ATI 6 or 8x54w would throw will throw way more PAR than the Cebu so don't be alarmed if you aren't hitting 350-450 when it's dialed in. That fixture likely won't ever put up those numbers.

And lack of shadowing means a ton if you can get 250 PAR on a highly diffuse system vs 400 PAR with an LED that has heavy shadowing. Cooking the upper branch surfaces of acros with more and more PAR won't yield much past their point of photoinhibition, but hitting 50 percent more surface area of the coral with useable light is a very big deal. Your alkalinity uptake will tell the story once you get the system dialed in. Hope you get this figured out soon.

Yes, well put, Sr!
That's why my recommendations are for the Lumen Bright or Cozumel.
Also, the efficiency of a good ballast will have great influences, specially on bulb's stability of intensity, besides running cooler.
I would also find some supplemental T5's for the sides, hang from the ceiling, and call it a day.
You will find out. Remember: you pay for what you get. If you want the best you need to work for it, my friend.

Edit: please take a look at the pics here:
http://www.aquariumspecialty.com/li...ures/coralvue-lumen-bright-l3-large-reflector

http://www.aquariumspecialty.com/li...tures/coralvue-lumen-bright-l3-mini-reflector

Grandis.

 

[A. grandis]

I run the 36” hybrid unit modified with 2 T5’s and a RB moon light. Awesome fixture and more than enough power to grow anything. JP

How did you modify for the T5s. What fixtures and how did you hang?
Grandis.

 

[jporter17]

How did you modify for the T5s. What fixtures and how did you hang?
Grandis.

The hybrid came with 4 XHO’s, 2 on each side. I removed the two inner ones and replaced them with RB T5 kits. The fixture now has XHO LEDs that I use to ramp up and down for sunrise/sunset, T5’s that come on for 9hrs a day, and the 2x250W MH’s that run 3.5hrs a day. The MH ballasts are dimmable, although I run them 100%. The moon light is in the center of the fixture and is dimmable and runs all night. The best of all lighting technologies. I can post a picture of the fixture tomorrow if you’d like. JP

 

[A. grandis]

The hybrid came with 4 XHO’s, 2 on each side. I removed the two inner ones and replaced them with RB T5 kits. The fixture now has XHO LEDs that I use to ramp up and down for sunrise/sunset, T5’s that come on for 9hrs a day, and the 2x250W MH’s that run 3.5hrs a day. The MH ballasts are dimmable, although I run them 100%. The moon light is in the center of the fixture and is dimmable and runs all night. The best of all lighting technologies. I can post a picture of the fixture tomorrow if you’d like. JP

Yes, please. That sounds very nice.
Can you please put links of where to get the dimmable ballasts you have?
Great! Please don't forget the pictures when you can..
Beautiful avatar!! What Acro is that?
Grandis.

 

[BoomCorals]

Yes it pulls the correct watts. The seneye also does work out of water. If I do the same kind of test with my kessils the par increases all the way as I get closer to the led.

(That was old expired Radiums....they are all I have to use for measurements. I have the same 150w Coralife ballasts as you actually. And I dunno about you, but my Coralife fixture has nice little DE reflectors in it compared to this fixture.)



I know the Seneye has a very narrow lens on its sensor....40º or something? Maybe more narrow than that – I can't remember for sure. I'm also not sure if they're good for reading out of water?

Also, this is not really a reflector since it's not angled and simply painted white inside vs mirrored.

I would definitely talk to Hamilton (and maybe Seneye too) before doing anything about it, but I think this could be normal. I suspect either of the single-bulb reflectors that got linked early on will be the better bet.

@BoomCorals Does the ballast seem to be pulling the correct amount of power from the wall??

 

[BoomCorals]

I agree that 250 par without shadow and shade would be great. I was expecting this fixture to be like others I've had or seen when it comes to halide, which I don't think is unreasonable.

I will see what Hamilton says when I hear back. In the meantime Im going to order two 400w radiums with luxcore ballasts, two ATI blue plus, and two ATI aquablue special. Even if I switch to another fixture such as the lumenbright or giesemann, I can use these anyways.

Very well could be something wrong with the fixture, but I think your expectations of a non focussed reflector with stock bulbs/ballasts were a little too high. No way to know for sure what it is at this early stage, but I suspect it could be combo of new bulbs, rather poor quality bulbs, and a reflector design that does not especially concentrate the light. I'd give lowering the light to about 12-14" off the water a shot and see what PAR you're getting with it after a full burn in. I honestly wouldn't expect much more than an underwater 200-250 average with that fixture. It's just not designed to be a PAR monster with the reflector type the cebu sun uses. An ATI 6 or 8x54w would throw will throw way more PAR than the Cebu so don't be alarmed if you aren't hitting 350-450 when it's dialed in. That fixture likely won't ever put up those numbers.

And lack of shadowing means a ton if you can get 250 PAR on a highly diffuse system vs 400 PAR with an LED that has heavy shadowing. Cooking the upper branch surfaces of acros with more and more PAR won't yield much past their point of photoinhibition, but hitting 50 percent more surface area of the coral with useable light is a very big deal. Your alkalinity uptake will tell the story once you get the system dialed in. Hope you get this figured out soon.

 

[Reefbrite]

What type of ballast we should use to make sure the bulb will have it's maximum efficiency with the PAR, spectrum and savings?
Grandis.

There are a handful of good ballasts you can use. We offer a matching electronic ballast that fires Pulse start and Probe start lamps. It works with Mogul, and HQI lamps and actually monitors lamp operation to help ensure the best performance (Output). It also has a 1-10 volt input so it can be hooked up to APEX and other third party controllers to allow the the ballast to be ramped/dimmed up to 33%

 

[DSC reef]

Yes, well put, Sr!
That's why my recommendations are for the Lumen Bright or Cozumel.
Also, the efficiency of a good ballast will have great influences, specially on bulb's stability of intensity, besides running cooler.
I would also find some supplemental T5's for the sides, hang from the ceiling, and call it a day.
You will find out. Remember: you pay for what you get. If you want the best you need to work for it, my friend.

Edit: please take a look at the pics here:
http://www.aquariumspecialty.com/li...ures/coralvue-lumen-bright-l3-large-reflector

http://www.aquariumspecialty.com/li...tures/coralvue-lumen-bright-l3-mini-reflector

Grandis.

At this point it's all speculation until Hamilton is contacted. The fixture that boom corals bought is great quality and suggesting he should have bought a lumenbright or cozumel because you "get what you pay for" is a bit extreme. That fixture is by no means cheap and low quality @A. grandis. Why dont we take a breath and wait to hear from hamilton before hating on this fixture???

 

[BoomCorals]

At this point it's all speculation until Hamilton is contacted. The fixture that boom corals bought is great quality and suggesting he should have bought a lumenbright or cozumel because you "get what you pay for" is a bit extreme. That fixture is by no means cheap and low quality @A. grandis. Why dont we take a breath and wait to hear from hamilton before hating on this fixture???

Yea I will say the fixture itself is a beast. Excellent build quality and great fan venting with nice strong fans. I am thrilled with the quality and will see what Hamilton has to say on the PAR.

By the way I lowered the light to 9" above the water. Par at 5" below water line is still only barely 200. If this was over a regular tank that was say 20"-24" deep, the tank would not have enough light for anything not at the top of the rocks. Definitely abnormal and I think this rules out that it's the form factor.

I appreciate everyone who has helped and offered advice. Makes me glad to be a sponsor of this great forum.

 

[BoomCorals]

Just to verify my findings, the new LUX meter at the water surface under the halide/t5 with the fixture 10" above the water is only 15,000 to 25,000. For comparison, my LED frag tanks, the readings are 35,000 to 65,000.

 

[A. grandis]

At this point it's all speculation until Hamilton is contacted. The fixture that boom corals bought is great quality and suggesting he should have bought a lumenbright or cozumel because you "get what you pay for" is a bit extreme. That fixture is by no means cheap and low quality @A. grandis. Why dont we take a breath and wait to hear from hamilton before hating on this fixture???

By no means I hate the fixture and do think there is something missing there. The readings has nothing to do with my suggestions in regards to spread, meaning that I totally agree there is something missing probably related to ballast and/or bulbs. Hamilton is a great brand that is surviving forever and we all know how good they are. I just though once he was going to sell/exchange he should get better spread. The Lumen Bright and Cozumel seems expensive, but has an amazing spread and reputation and would be better for his application IMO.
Why do you think I have to hate that fixture? I'm more than interested to hear what Hamilton will say because if I would get a halide system for mu 75gal., that would be one of the best choices. Compact, solid and already with T5s with fans from Hamilton? Amazing fixture for my little zoa tank! I would certainly get electronic ballast with Radiums though. If he change those bulbs and the ballast it will transform it in another fixture. Pay more.. get more.
Grandis.

 

[A. grandis]

Yea I will say the fixture itself is a beast. Excellent build quality and great fan venting with nice strong fans. I am thrilled with the quality and will see what Hamilton has to say on the PAR.

By the way I lowered the light to 9" above the water. Par at 5" below water line is still only barely 200. If this was over a regular tank that was say 20"-24" deep, the tank would not have enough light for anything not at the top of the rocks. Definitely abnormal and I think this rules out that it's the form factor.

I appreciate everyone who has helped and offered advice. Makes me glad to be a sponsor of this great forum.

Yes, this forum is the best!
They will certainly tell you what's up and please ask them about changing the ballast and bulb for efficiency and see what they suggest. Good luck, my friend.
Grandis.

 

[BoomCorals]

Yes, this forum is the best!
They will certainly tell you what's up and please ask them about changing the ballast and bulb for efficiency and see what they suggest. Good luck, my friend.
Grandis.

Another interesting issue has cropped up. Any circuit I plug the T5 into, the gfci trips after an hour or two. Even though I'm nowhere near the 15A per circuit limit.

Original circuit was at 10A, with only an apex eb832 plugged into it. I ran this circuit myself with 12ga wire, 15A breaker and 15A outlet.

Next circuit, 9A with the T5, again a whole separate circuit I ran. A totally different eb832. Same result.

Lastly plugged into a wall outlet, this circuit has only a lamp and some recessed lights on it. Same result. (I know all the lights and outlets on my circuit.) This outlet also has a gfci outlet I installed since its next to a tank.

 

[KJoFan]

Shoulda just stuck with Kessil. @BoomCorals