Am I crazy for thinking MH + t5 ?

[Caliguy1983]

I've ran metal halides alone, t5 alone and kessils alone. My best success came from T5's. I just did 7 months with Kessil 360we fixtures and got excellent color but little to no growth. I wanted them to work well because they were efficient, sleek, and made great shimmer. Unfortunately they just didn't produce. I went with a 6 bulb Geissman and 2 reef brites. In ust a few weeks I got noticible growth and color pop again. Im sticking with T5s for now !

 

[mcarroll]

I've ran metal halides alone, t5 alone and kessils alone. My best success came from T5's. I just did 7 months with Kessil 360we fixtures and got excellent color but little to no growth. I wanted them to work well because they were efficient, sleek, and made great shimmer. Unfortunately they just didn't produce. I went with a 6 bulb Geissman and 2 reef brites. In ust a few weeks I got noticible growth and color pop again. Im sticking with T5s for now !

What were the differences between those systems in PAR or lux numbers?

 

[nervousmonkey]

It's very uncomfortable when someone thinks that I'm trying to go around with LED hate/jokes or whatever, so I had tell 'em already how I think. Hope that doesn't screw up here!
Hopefully by the end of the year everyone get used to what I think here and just be my friend.
I have no enemies at all and this is not going to be an exception.
I'm not spending my precious time here for nothing, but to learn and really tell people what I believe is very precious about the subject. To me is more than obvious.

Back to the subject...
Man, make sure you put that MH/T5 fixture very high to adapt your corals first and turn the halides only for a hour for the first couple of days. Then you lower the fixture slowly. Same is true when you change bulbs. I hope you remember that! The adaptation will be many times slower for your system because it's so shallow!! Please don't forget that!!
The T5s can be on for like 5 hours to start, but the halides only for one or two hours to start will take longer... You'll see what I mean when you turn them on! That's what I would do.

Grandis.

Yep, agree that slow acclimation is not just a good suggestion but really the only way to make halides and T5’s work on a previously pure LED tank. I don’t know why this is the case since LED systems can really burn too, but in my case, I chose dimmable halide fixtures and the dimmable T5’s. I know some will say that the dimmable ATI isn’t worth it in the long run since you’ll just run the bulbs at 100% once corals get acclimated, which is quite true, however the reason dimmable bulbs and ballasts are worth it is in the initial set up. I ran my halides at 25% the first week for one hour and then ran them on a schedule ramping them from 0% up to a max of 55% over two hours, left em at 55 for an hour then back off over two hours. They stayed like that for 2 months without touching a button, knob, wire or Apex. Now I have to be honest, the only reason why I didn’t change anything was because I forgot that I set the ramping schedule for the halides like that with Apex. It ended up working well though, and I was lucky I forget stuff like that because even at a little more than half mast power, I saw some corals that were really stressed. They all did fine though. After close to three months I decided to let em rip; Holy Schnikies! I had forgotten how bright halides are, at least human perception. Everything in my tank is lit like up like Day One post Chernobyl. After 9 months I can run em for 8 hours a day; I have zoas crawling the back wall of my tank trying to get more, like halide crack. I’ll talk coral growth and coloration in a PM or new thread since brevity flew out the window on this thread. I have three hydra’s that I put on a schedule and haven’t changed it. Corals love the stability the most, not whether I have a shark tooth pattern of violet alternating with royal blue. LOL. I have the hydras because everyone has to admit that it’s fun to get some crazy colors in the morning and at night. Three hydras can’t compete in the slightest with the halides when all systems are running full bore. I can’t say enough about halides. Could keep going about T5’s too but have to sleep. Fun post!!!

 

[A. grandis]

Yep, agree that slow acclimation is not just a good suggestion but really the only way to make halides and T5’s work on a previously pure LED tank. I don’t know why this is the case since LED systems can really burn too, but in my case, I chose dimmable halide fixtures and the dimmable T5’s. I know some will say that the dimmable ATI isn’t worth it in the long run since you’ll just run the bulbs at 100% once corals get acclimated, which is quite true, however the reason dimmable bulbs and ballasts are worth it is in the initial set up. I ran my halides at 25% the first week for one hour and then ran them on a schedule ramping them from 0% up to a max of 55% over two hours, left em at 55 for an hour then back off over two hours. They stayed like that for 2 months without touching a button, knob, wire or Apex. Now I have to be honest, the only reason why I didn’t change anything was because I forgot that I set the ramping schedule for the halides like that with Apex. It ended up working well though, and I was lucky I forget stuff like that because even at a little more than half mast power, I saw some corals that were really stressed. They all did fine though. After close to three months I decided to let em rip; Holy Schnikies! I had forgotten how bright halides are, at least human perception. Everything in my tank is lit like up like Day One post Chernobyl. After 9 months I can run em for 8 hours a day; I have zoas crawling the back wall of my tank trying to get more, like halide crack. I’ll talk coral growth and coloration in a PM or new thread since brevity flew out the window on this thread. I have three hydra’s that I put on a schedule and haven’t changed it. Corals love the stability the most, not whether I have a shark tooth pattern of violet alternating with royal blue. LOL. I have the hydras because everyone has to admit that it’s fun to get some crazy colors in the morning and at night. Three hydras can’t compete in the slightest with the halides when all systems are running full bore. I can’t say enough about halides. Could keep going about T5’s too but have to sleep. Fun post!!!

The acclimation period is true with any artificial light when the corals are added to a running system or when the type of light/ bulbs are changed. It's just the way the corals are wired. They need to be able to take the new higher intensity. When they are transferred to a lower intensity that adaptation period isn't necessary. My craziest growth, color and polyp shapes where under MHs and fluorescents a long ago. they just look like in the ocean. that's what I like the most. Same thing with me... they were crawling on the glass and it was just amazing. The room was very hot in the summer though and I didn't have a chiller back then. That was so long ago! I still love the halides. I have 6 T5s today because it's only a 75gal. and the zoas are just loving it too much to change now. The system has been running close to 10 years and it's very well balanced.
I think what makes a thread special is the diversity of subjects related to the main subject. At least I like that way... I think it turns to a huge conversation like we were in a room talking. It's great!
Aloha,
Grandis.

 

[Caliguy1983]

What were the differences between those systems in PAR or lux numbers?

I didn't measure the par on the kessils. I read a lot of arguments about what par meter would work with them etc. it's been 10 years since I had metal halides but I remember using my clubs par meter to measure both them and my T5s. I have to correct my post. It was late last night and I said I went with a Geissman fixture. That was my old fixture. My current tank has a 6 bulb dimmable ATI with the two reef brites. I don't think I'll go back to pure LEDS until the technology changes again. I like them a lot but I just haven't seen the crazy growth you get from t5 or halides.

 

[BoomCorals]

I have PAR readings over my frag tank for SB Reef Lights and Kessil AP700 and Kessil A360WE. I will do the same for my new CEBU SUN once it arrives. There is something to the PAR though, as the PUR/spectrum does matter. Even though my SB Reef put out more PAR, the Kessil has so far grown coral the exact same rate with less PAR.


SB Reef:

Kessil AP700:

3x Kessil A360WE:

 

[Murica]

I know this is a frequently asked question, but on average, how much would it cost to run halide per month. Let's say... For a 72 inch spectra with 250 watt ballasts

 

[rtparty]

I know this is a frequently asked question, but on average, how much would it cost to run halide per month. Let's say... For a 72 inch spectra with 250 watt ballasts

Totally dependent on where you live and what your electricity costs. You can't make a broad, sweeping guess.

It's easy enough to figure out though. First, find out what you pay per kWh. Then figure out what your light is using. A 72" Spectra with 3 250w lights will pull probably close to 800w and then add in T5. For simplicity sake let's say your light uses 1000w or 1kwh. You run the light 8 hours a day with all lights on. So you use 8kwh a day. Take that 8 and times it by your rate. For me, my electricity is close to 12 cents per kWh. So 96 cents a day. Round up to $1 to make it easy. So $30 a month.

You then have to add in other costs though. Do you need a chiller? Does your house AC run a ton now to fight the heat? Or on the other hand, are your heaters working less? Do you need the heat in your room anyway so now your home heater runs less?

Lots of variables at play

 

[Broadfield]

Totally dependent on where you live and what your electricity costs. You can't make a broad, sweeping guess.

It's easy enough to figure out though. First, find out what you pay per kWh. Then figure out what your light is using. A 72" Spectra with 3 250w lights will pull probably close to 800w and then add in T5. For simplicity sake let's say your light uses 1000w or 1kwh. You run the light 8 hours a day with all lights on. So you use 8kwh a day. Take that 8 and times it by your rate. For me, my electricity is close to 12 cents per kWh. So 96 cents a day. Round up to $1 to make it easy. So $30 a month.

You then have to add in other costs though. Do you need a chiller? Does your house AC run a ton now to fight the heat? Or on the other hand, are your heaters working less? Do you need the heat in your room anyway so now your home heater runs less?

Lots of variables at play

I couldn't have said it any better!

 

[Murica]

Totally dependent on where you live and what your electricity costs. You can't make a broad, sweeping guess.

It's easy enough to figure out though. First, find out what you pay per kWh. Then figure out what your light is using. A 72" Spectra with 3 250w lights will pull probably close to 800w and then add in T5. For simplicity sake let's say your light uses 1000w or 1kwh. You run the light 8 hours a day with all lights on. So you use 8kwh a day. Take that 8 and times it by your rate. For me, my electricity is close to 12 cents per kWh. So 96 cents a day. Round up to $1 to make it easy. So $30 a month.

You then have to add in other costs though. Do you need a chiller? Does your house AC run a ton now to fight the heat? Or on the other hand, are your heaters working less? Do you need the heat in your room anyway so now your home heater runs less?

Lots of variables at play

My prices per kWh are roughly that, no need for a chiller here. Thanks for the info!

 

[pdxmonkeyboy]

in terms of cost, in Portland Oregon we have pretty cheap power and running a 1000watts for 12 hours a day costs $28 month. So i would say it costs around $25.

You have to remember though that i am lighting a 300 gallon 6x3 tank. Getting even coverage on that beast would take a LOT of LEDs or T5.

 

[silvernblackr35]

If I lived in a hotter climate or the tank was in an enclosed room where I needed a chiller I probably wouldn't be using MH just for the reason since t5/led would be the cheaper option. The trade off might be a little less growth and no magical halide shimmer but you can achieve great results with both t5 and led. Keep in mind if you have problems with the heat from the halides heating up your water significantly then that chiller is literally your tank's life support, if it fails and you aren't quick enough to notice it you can literally cook your tank.

The heat from halides don't always have to be a downside though. For instance my tank is in my finished basement where the little added heat actually helps my tank heaters not run as much and takes the slight chill out of the room in the colder months.

 

[BoomCorals]

The cebu sun arrived... Man I am going to need to figure out how to hang this lol. It is VERY heavy, much more so than I was expecting. Probably 40-50 pounds.

 

[A. grandis]

I didn't measure the par on the kessils. I read a lot of arguments about what par meter would work with them etc. it's been 10 years since I had metal halides but I remember using my clubs par meter to measure both them and my T5s. I have to correct my post. It was late last night and I said I went with a Geissman fixture. That was my old fixture. My current tank has a 6 bulb dimmable ATI with the two reef brites. I don't think I'll go back to pure LEDS until the technology changes again. I like them a lot but I just haven't seen the crazy growth you get from t5 or halides.

Yeah. But I don't think LEDs can be much different than what the are now. LEDs will be aways LEDs.
We'll see...
Your ATI dimmable is great! I had one. I just didn't like when the electricity went out and we had to reset up the comp.
But it is great!
Thanks,
Grandis.

 

[A. grandis]

I have PAR readings over my frag tank for SB Reef Lights and Kessil AP700 and Kessil A360WE. I will do the same for my new CEBU SUN once it arrives. There is something to the PAR though, as the PUR/spectrum does matter. Even though my SB Reef put out more PAR, the Kessil has so far grown coral the exact same rate with less PAR.


SB Reef:

Kessil AP700:

3x Kessil A360WE:

Oh man! That's a nice set up. The halides will rock.
Agreed! PAR is just part of the equation.
Can you please take a picture of the tank with the pumps off to show the corals?
Aloha,
Grandis.

 

[A. grandis]

I know this is a frequently asked question, but on average, how much would it cost to run halide per month. Let's say... For a 72 inch spectra with 250 watt ballasts

Well, that will depend on where you live and how much the electricity costs there.
The chiller is what makes the difference. But most of us will need a chiller with the halides.
Grandis.

 

[A. grandis]

The cebu sun arrived... Man I am going to need to figure out how to hang this lol. It is VERY heavy, much more so than I was expecting. Probably 40-50 pounds.

Yeah, the pendants would be lighter.
But it will be fine. Pics!?
Very exciting! make sure you have sunglasses when you turn it on!! h
Haha!! ;Watching

I have to go work now..
Grandis.

 

[BoomCorals]

Oh man! That's a nice set up. The halides will rock.
Agreed! PAR is just part of the equation.
Can you please take a picture of the tank with the pumps off to show the corals?
Aloha,
Grandis.

Yea I can snag one later.

Yeah, the pendants would be lighter.
But it will be fine. Pics!?
Very exciting! make sure you have sunglasses when you turn it on!! h
Haha!! ;Watching

I have to go work now..
Grandis.

Pics!

My #1 goal here is coral growth and health. Looks are secondary, as I have tanks I can use with different lights for taking pictures under good lighting, or various lighting etc. I also did want to have a tank set up with T5/Halide as there is a subset of customers who want coral grown under t5/halide and not LED. In the end I'll go with whatever fixtures give me the best growth and health. My current tanks and frags are very healthy and grow quite well. To test I'll put frags of the same cut and size into the various tanks and track progress. I did this with the SB reef vs Kessil, and will post my findings very soon in that thread on my forum, as that would be too off topic here.

But yea I am going to have to figure out how the heck to hang this light. I think I'm going to have to hang from ceiling studs. Back wall could be an option, except that the center of the tank is 26" from the back wall, so I'd need some pretty strong bracing or mounts to hang from with back wall. If I did from ceiling I could probably just buy some chain link and large wood screw eyes.

Here is the stand (not pretty, but I'm not here to impress you with my stand, only my coral ) and current light with the cheapie PVC pipe fixture.

 

[rockskimmerflow]

Did you experience differences between all those bulbs in regards to loss of PAR by the time you changed them?
How often do you change your bulbs?
Grandis.

I've had 250w Phoenix 14k bulbs run for about 14 months before I changed them. The XM 20ks yellowed in spectrum to my eye at about 10-12 months and I even had one burn out around the 1 year mark once- Never had that with a Phoenix. Didn't do an end of life PAR comparison, but when they were both pretty fresh at a few months old a pair of XM 20ks was putting out about 380 PAR at 12inches water depth in the center of a 65 gallon tank, whereas the Phoenix were hitting 450 PAR in the same center spot. Doesn't tell the whole story though, because if you look at the spectral distributions for the bulbs the XM's absolutely smoke the Phoneix when it comes to that 380-410nm range, but the Phoenix hits the 450nm peak way harder. Of course the PAR measurement weights the 450nm range much higher so that explains the discrepancy. Not sure which bulb was putting out more light energy though, since the photon energy in the UV range is higher. Probably also explains the shorter lifespan of the XM since producing that heavy UV spectrum tends to burn through those emitting elements in the bulb faster.

For general use as a standalone light I recommend the Phoenix. You'd definitely want some royal blue LED or blue T5 to supplement the XMs for aesthetic reasons, but the results were spectacular when I used to run them.

 

[pdxmonkeyboy]

I thought I would throw this out there because people keep bringing up chillers. I have tried about every major brand of chillers except the huge commercial units and the best one by a long long shot it made by a guy in Florida.

He takes air conditioning units, plumb them with titanium coils and adds a temperature control. they are called penguin chillers and they are absolute BEASTS. His 1/2hp unit will drop 250 gallons of water 18 degrees below room temp in about 12 hours. Our warehouse is about 98degrees in the summer and our water reservoirs stay at around 68 witg no issues at all.