Am I overfeeding?

[Alexusmc]

Wow, I did not receive any notifications about this post - thought it died out!

Anyways - I asked LRS again and they said to not run Chaeto/fuge as my nitrates are basically undetectable but high phosphates. They also recommended me to start dosing Nitrate, so I was going to purchase this to dose.

As for now, I've cut down feeding to 3 Hikari cubes a day, while also getting 7 more Blue-Green Chromises. Problem is, I still don't understand why my phosphate is so high. My LRS said to start rinsing the food, so that's what I do. Also running Phosguard 24/7, and phosphate is consistently at 0.5. I might also start using Phosphate-E or Lanathum chloride as opposed to Phosguard.



It takes approximately 30 seconds or less for the fish to consume my daily feeding of 3 cubes. I'm probably under-feeding, right?

Is there any other way that Phosphate can somehow get in? I stopped feeding my corals (Reef-Roids) for about 2 months due to this Phosphate issue.

What about using Chemi-Pure Elite instead of Phosguard?

 

[Luckyduck]

What if extremely effective Phosphate E is overdosed? Completely safe? how to use: Add weekly at same dosage to maintain an immeasurable reactive phosphate concentration. Safe? one does not even consider to dose based on a known parameter.
What does such a product wich agressively binds phosphate may do to the coral holobiont if overdosed?


There is a much safer way to control nutrients, any nutrient.

Testing and dosing. I will never introduce a dose of Phosphat-E without testing phosphates. I cannot speak for our post illustrator however. Lanthium Chloride is much easier to overdose than Phosphat-E and it will kill fish and reek havoc in corals and other inhabitants. I personally never use a "weekly dosage" of Phosphat-E. I test every time with a Hanna checker before I calculate the required dose to get to the target level of phosphates. And I do monthly ICP tests to maintain I am keep proper levels and not making any mistakes durring my own testing. Point being he keeps asking for phosphate removal and I have told him 5 times Phosphat-E works great but he keeps asking. Honestly who knows if that's even his problem after going back and fourth it seems like he just wants to dose things because he feels it's necessary. As the post said 2 before this one test results are messangers of underlying issues and need to be fixed not with a dose of something unless the dose is the fix. If the underlying issue is not corrected the problem will persist.

And as to your question anything can be overdosed. Alkalinity, Calcium, Magnesium... Responsible testing is always a part of dosing. Never blindly dose anything into your reef aquarium!

 

[Maxx Yung]

Testing and dosing. I will never introduce a dose of Phosphat-E without testing phosphates. I cannot speak for our post illustrator however. Lanthium Chloride is much easier to overdose than Phosphat-E and it will kill fish and reek havoc in corals and other inhabitants. I personally never use a "weekly dosage" of Phosphat-E. I test every time with a Hanna checker before I calculate the required dose to get to the target level of phosphates. And I do monthly ICP tests to maintain I am keep proper levels and not making any mistakes durring my own testing. Point being he keeps asking for phosphate removal and I have told him 5 times Phosphat-E works great but he keeps asking. Honestly who knows if that's even his problem after going back and fourth it seems like he just wants to dose things because he feels it's necessary. As the post said 2 before this one test results are messangers of underlying issues and need to be fixed not with a dose of something unless the dose is the fix. If the underlying issue is not corrected the problem will persist.

And as to your question anything can be overdosed. Alkalinity, Calcium, Magnesium... Responsible testing is always a part of dosing. Never blindly dose anything into your reef aquarium!

Hey, sorry if I seem annoying - but I thought Lanthanium Chloride is Phosphate-E? Is it different somehow?
I will always test before dosing something - as many of you guys have said, I seem to be chasing numbers; so should I just leave my nitrate at 0 at phosphate at 0.5+? My corals don't look visibly healthy right now - which is why I'm trying to get my levels to an acceptable range (2<Nitrate<10 and 0.01<Phosphate <0.1). Not looking for a specific number, just trying to get it in the ranges that seem to be working for many. (Although I do realize that you can have excellent tanks with undetectable levels of both).

 

[Maxx Yung]

I've already gone through the reasons why my phosphate is high - can't figure it out...
Someone said my salt mix should be good (Red Sea Coral Pro)
I tested my RODI bin (Reads 0 phosphate, ICP is going through soon)
Overfeeding (According to you guys, I am not overfeeding)

Last possible option is phosphate leech from rock - So the only remedy for it is just using Lanthanum Chloride/Phosphate-E.

 

[Luckyduck]

Hey, sorry if I seem annoying - but I thought Lanthanium Chloride is Phosphate-E? Is it different somehow?
I will always test before dosing something - as many of you guys have said, I seem to be chasing numbers; so should I just leave my nitrate at 0 at phosphate at 0.5+? My corals don't look visibly healthy right now - which is why I'm trying to get my levels to an acceptable range (2<Nitrate<10 and 0.01<Phosphate <0.1). Not looking for a specific number, just trying to get it in the ranges that seem to be working for many. (Although I do realize that you can have excellent tanks with undetectable levels of both).

Sorry bud I didn't mean to sound like I was losing my patience. Phosphat-E is not Lanthium Chloride as far as I know. However Brightwell doesnt list the ingredients so it could be. I know you can over dose Lanthium Chloride very easily though and I have read some horror stories. I have used Phosphat-E for 2 months now when ever I need to get my Phosphates down which is usually every other day I'll test and they'll be at 0.14 so I dose accordingly to get them back to 0.05. I use the PO4 cubes too to help keep it down and as well they help remove silicates. There's gotta be something going on somewhere that your phosphates are that high and staying there. It will certainly effect your corals at those levels. Mine were at 0.60 for a week a d I started to notice a decline in my corals health. That's what I started Phosphat-E and haven't had any issues since. As soon as you can do that ICP test and test your RODI water too. It's nice to trust the measurements you get and get so many of them even for things we cannot test like Boron and Manganese. I ICP test once a month and I also have every test kit there is. Calcium, Alkalinity, Magnesium, pH, Nitrate, Nitrite, ammonia, Strontium, Iron, Iodoine & Potassium. I test them all (cpet nitrite and ammonia; those are more for cycling stage). Testing frequently allows me to understand the chemical balance of my water and fix problems before they get to be anything major.

 

[Charles Zinn]

Hi, I am not sure if I am overfeeding.
My phosphate is absurdly high at 1~. I asked my local LRS and they said it was overfeeding, which is what I thought anyway. But I feel like I feed my fish pretty little...

Fish
Chocolate Mimic Tang
Caribbean Blue tang
lawnmower (but doesn't eat any of our food)
2 clowns
purple tang
foxface
hippo tang
2 bimac anthias
2 small damsals
leopard wrasse

Feeding
2 times a day 2 cubes of Hikari.
Every other day full sheet of seaweed, removed after 4 hours.
Every other day sustainable aquatics pellets.

I used to have hi phosphates til I? quite using pellet and flake foods. What kind of filtration are you using?

 

[Luckyduck]

I used to have hi phosphates til I? quite using pellet and flake foods. What kind of filtration are you using?

Any food can contribute to high Nitrates and Phosphates but it is completely possible to feed and not have high nitrate and phosphate levels. I feed Reef Roids, frozen Mysis and Spirulina flake food and dont have issues with either. There's something else causing it. The food may be contributing to it but it's not causing it. I test phosphates every other day and dose Phosphat-E @ approximately 0.5ml for my 20 gallon cube to take my Phosphates down from usually 0.14ppm to 0.05. Sometimes the numbers vary but that's why one of the most important rules in this hobby is test before you dose.

 

[Charles Zinn]

Will do testing on my RODI bin, if I can't figure out why, ICP it is.

I started with live rock, so I don't think Phosphate can leech out of there.

I'll also do more research into sodium nitrate and NeoNitro. On the forum, Randy suggested sodium/potassium nitrate, and he does have a high reputation IMO.

I have 3 Radions Gen 4 XR30s. I've ran it on the same setting for 2 years and it was fine, so I don't think it is because of the light.

Finally, I will try running the skimmer 12 hours a day. However, my question is why does it work? I thought phosphate is removed when the skimmer is running...

Phosphates can leach out of pressed live rock

 

[Charles Zinn]

Phosphates can leach out of pressed live rock

How is your clean up crew ?

 

[Luckyduck]

Phosphates can leach out of pressed live rock

Very true.

 

[schuby]

Regarding Chaeto - My LRS said that Chaeto needs high nitrate and phosphate, and told me that I have a phosphate issue, not nitrate and phosphate issue. I can start Chaeto now, I have a fuge and a really good fuge light. It's just that my big ball of Chaeto died due to low Phosphate and Nitrate before...

I had a big ball of chaeto die due to lack of iron. Now I dose an iron supplement every few weeks. Chaeto has grown well since. It was also growing for the first six months that I had it.

 

[Luckyduck]

I had a big ball of chaeto die due to lack of iron. Now I dose an iron supplement every few weeks. Chaeto has grown well since. It was also growing for the first six months that I had it.

That's an excellent element to dose for Macro. I also dose Iron for the Macros in my refugium. Ferrion to be exact. They also like Manganese, Molybdenum, Nickel, Carbon but a good start is Iron. You can also dose Chaeto Gro which has a load of micronutrients in it that Chaeto thrive on. I prefer Ferrion (just iron) though because I dose other micronutrients and I don't want to overdose.

 

[Maxx Yung]

Phosphates can leach out of pressed live rock

Very true.

Oh, I thought it was dry rock only! The only solution will be to dose Phosphate-E or some other phosphate remover - taking out the rocks is not an option, unfortunately.

 

[Maxx Yung]

I had a big ball of chaeto die due to lack of iron. Now I dose an iron supplement every few weeks. Chaeto has grown well since. It was also growing for the first six months that I had it.

That's an excellent element to dose for Macro. I also dose Iron for the Macros in my refugium. Ferrion to be exact. They also like Manganese, Molybdenum, Nickel, Carbon but a good start is Iron. You can also dose Chaeto Gro which has a load of micronutrients in it that Chaeto thrive on. I prefer Ferrion (just iron) though because I dose other micronutrients and I don't want to overdose.

I had a massive ball of Chaeto, but my phosphate and nitrate was running low so it died. I dosed iron as well.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

Testing and dosing. I will never introduce a dose of Phosphat-E without testing phosphates. I cannot speak for our post illustrator however. Lanthium Chloride is much easier to overdose than Phosphat-E and it will kill fish and reek havoc in corals and other inhabitants. I personally never use a "weekly dosage" of Phosphat-E. I test every time with a Hanna checker before I calculate the required dose to get to the target level of phosphates. And I do monthly ICP tests to maintain I am keep proper levels and not making any mistakes durring my own testing. Point being he keeps asking for phosphate removal and I have told him 5 times Phosphat-E works great but he keeps asking. Honestly who knows if that's even his problem after going back and fourth it seems like he just wants to dose things because he feels it's necessary. As the post said 2 before this one test results are messangers of underlying issues and need to be fixed not with a dose of something unless the dose is the fix. If the underlying issue is not corrected the problem will persist.

And as to your question anything can be overdosed. Alkalinity, Calcium, Magnesium... Responsible testing is always a part of dosing. Never blindly dose anything into your reef aquarium!

There is no need for chemical products to battle nutrient levels. The cure may be worse and do more damage as the nutrient levels ever will. A nutrient level does not kill, unavailability does. In a lot of cases, one does not know what is added exactly. Phoshate E is no exception.
Basic: Determine phosphate concentration in aquarium prior to first use by testing with an accurate test kit. Add product to aquarium near a mechanical filter or protein skimmer intake at the maximum rate of 5 ml (1 capful) per 20 US-gallons daily for each 1 ppm of phosphate present in system. When used in this fashion, 250 ml treats up to 1,000 US-gallons (3,785 L). Add weekly at same dosage to maintain an immeasurable reactive phosphate concentration.

I would rather not be that coral that is growing at an increasing rate due to an increasing temperature supported by nutrient availability and suddenly is cut off of its phosphorus source for a prolonged period of time. On a weekly base?
It is good husbandry to try to avoid phosphorus becomes the growth limiting factor, this shock therapy seems to me not a safe method to manage the phosphorus reserve. It is not good husbandry adding products to a live support system of which one does not know what they contain and how they work, exactly.

I have no doubt Phosphate E is very effective for removing phosphate, but? Once added one does not have any control over the removal rate which is basic for being able to manage the nutrient content. Removing is not the same as managing.

If for example a ferric based phosphate remover is used in a filter or refuge, one is able to manage the removal rate, this way controlling the reserve at the desired level.
But there are other and better ways to manage the nutrient content.

Why battling phosphorus? Do you have any scientific references backing up the need for battling the phosphate content, and kill the messenger as it was the only enemy to kill to win the war?
All I could find is that an increased phosphate level support calcification if enough CO3 is available and the phosphate level does not influence the symbiodinium growth rate much, exempt if not available.( ref: CMF De Haes En Co 2017-2020) It has been shown insufficient availability of phosphorus in periods of high growth harms and may kill corals. (ref:Anthias2019) Limiting the risk for coral bleaching is the least what one can do. I think using Phosphate E is not the best way to limit that risk.

For safe and easy nutrient management we make use of a simple biofilter, a refuge.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

I had a massive ball of Chaeto, but my phosphate and nitrate was running low so it died. I dosed iron as well.

You could have kept it alive by feeding modified F2 media, this way controlling the nutrient content.

 

[Luckyduck]

Oh, I thought it was dry rock only! The only solution will be to dose Phosphate-E or some other phosphate remover - taking out the rocks is not an option, unfortunately.

Definitely no reason to take out your rocks, don't worry about that. If that were the case almost every aquarist would be removing their rocks!

 

[Luckyduck]

There is no need for chemical products to battle nutrient levels. The cure may be worse and do more damage as the nutrient levels ever will. A nutrient level does not kill, unavailability does. In a lot of cases, one does not know what is added exactly. Phoshate E is no exception.
Basic: Determine phosphate concentration in aquarium prior to first use by testing with an accurate test kit. Add product to aquarium near a mechanical filter or protein skimmer intake at the maximum rate of 5 ml (1 capful) per 20 US-gallons daily for each 1 ppm of phosphate present in system. When used in this fashion, 250 ml treats up to 1,000 US-gallons (3,785 L). Add weekly at same dosage to maintain an immeasurable reactive phosphate concentration.

I would rather not be that coral that is growing at an increasing rate due to an increasing temperature supported by nutrient availability and suddenly is cut off of its phosphorus source for a prolonged period of time. On a weekly base?
It is good husbandry to try to avoid phosphorus becomes the growth limiting factor, this shock therapy seems to me not a safe method to manage the phosphorus reserve. It is not good husbandry adding products to a live support system of which one does not know what they contain and how they work, exactly.

I have no doubt Phosphate E is very effective for removing phosphate, but? Once added one does not have any control over the removal rate which is basic for being able to manage the nutrient content. Removing is not the same as managing.

If for example a ferric based phosphate remover is used in a filter or refuge, one is able to manage the removal rate, this way controlling the reserve at the desired level.
But there are other and better ways to manage the nutrient content.

Why battling phosphorus? Do you have any scientific references backing up the need for battling the phosphate content, and kill the messenger as it was the only enemy to kill to win the war?
All I could find is that an increased phosphate level support calcification if enough CO3 is available and the phosphate level does not influence the symbiodinium growth rate much, exempt if not available.( ref: CMF De Haes En Co 2017-2020) It has been shown insufficient availability of phosphorus in periods of high growth harms and may kill corals. (ref:Anthias2019) Limiting the risk for coral bleaching is the least what one can do. I think using Phosphate E is not the best way to limit that risk.

For safe and easy nutrient management we make use of a simple biofilter, a refuge.

I have a refugium full of very rapidly growing Macro algae including but not limited to Chaeto. If I dosed the same amount of Phosphat-E that would not be effectively removing the amount of phosphate I want removed. The whole point of advanced dosing is to determine how much phosphates you want removed from your water and dose accordingly to achieve that level. When my phosphate levels are high micro algae grows. It's just that simple hense why I keep my phosphates at 0.05 PPM. And I would imagine there's a reason that that is the target number for phosphates. I don't really need you to tell me what I'm doing isn't working when it certainly is working for me. My corals are all growing like crazy some recovering from damage during shipping very nicely so my methods of removing phosphate are not an issue. I use Brightwell po4 cubes to help maintain the levels that I'm at but I feed my corals somewhat heavily so I dose the E every other day to make sure they don't go sky high. I have been using Phosphat-E for 2 months now every other day and not having any ill effect on my corals. It's fine if you don't like that method but it works for me and very well I might add. I'm just sharing my experience with him.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

I have a refugium full of very rapidly growing Macro algae including but not limited to Chaeto. If I dosed the same amount of Phosphat-E that would not be effectively removing the amount of phosphate I want removed. The whole point of advanced dosing is to determine how much phosphates you want removed from your water and dose accordingly to achieve that level. When my phosphate levels are high micro algae grows. It's just that simple hense why I keep my phosphates at 0.05 PPM. And I would imagine there's a reason that that is the target number for phosphates. I don't really need you to tell me what I'm doing isn't working when it certainly is working for me. My corals are all growing like crazy some recovering from damage during shipping very nicely so my methods of removing phosphate are not an issue. I use Brightwell po4 cubes to help maintain the levels that I'm at but I feed my corals somewhat heavily so I dose the E every other day to make sure they don't go sky high. I have been using Phosphat-E for 2 months now every other day and not having any ill effect on my corals. It's fine if you don't like that method but it works for me and very well I might add. I'm just sharing my experience with him.

If you have an algae filter you do not need such chemicals. Just feed the refuge with for phosphorus corrected F2 media. This way one is able to trim any nutrient.

 

[Charles Zinn]

How is your clean up crew ?

Fish snails hermit crabs shrimp