Amino acid vinegar

Deep_Six Corals

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Hello! I recently started using a new product that my supplier has started making. It contains amino acids and vinegar. He told me the majority of the stuff is aspartic acid and vinegar, though it contains a secondary amino. He has explained to me the science and reasoning behind this all in one type product and it sounds promising, he has done his research. As far as I'm concerened, This is the first product of its kind. I've been dosing it as per his instructions (I've haven't carbon dosed before) and I'm beginning to see the usual effects of carbon dosing, no3 and po4 levels are low, corals are lightening, skimmer is pulling out more than usual. Also PE and feeding responses seem to be excited. I was wondering if you (Randy) have any input on on what my friend is trying to do here and if you think this will have any added benefit because of the mixture of a carbon source and aminos. I enjoy the science of it all. Thanks!
 
It's a fine thing to experiment with,a nd amino acids may be especially useful in ULNS systems where corals are not necessarily getting enough nutrients.

I have recommended aspartic acid in the past (see this article from 2002):

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/apr2002/chem.htm

from it:

Regardless of the mechanisms involved, the need for these organics in calcification is easily verified. Allemand et al14 have studied the role of such materials in Stylophora pistillata. Interestingly, they find that inhibitors of protein synthesis reduce the rate of calcification considerably. For example, reducing protein synthesis by 60-85% reduced calcification by 50%. A similar result was found by inhibiting glycoprotein synthesis. These results did not come about because of reduced metabolism, but rather by specific effects of reduced protein and glycoprotein synthesis. The most important conclusion in their paper may be that the rate of skeletogenesis may be more limited by the rate of biosynthesis and exocytosis of organic matrix proteins rather than by calcium deposition.

Interestingly, the apparently large need for a particular amino acid (aspartic acid) to synthesize these proteins is satisfied by external sources, not by either the coral itself or the zooxanthellae. For this reason, it might be interesting to see what added aspartic acid does to calcification rates in reef tanks.
 
Thank you for the insight Randy. I've noticed over the past two days my soft corals are looking angry. Some of my zoas have shrunk and receded. Could this be in response to the carbon dosing.
 
They haven't browned. Some have closed and shrunk, others have flipped inside out almost (I'm talking about zoas here, all other corals are fine) all of my zoa colonies are doing this. I have been dosing 2ml four times a day for 8ml total through a dosing pump
 
what is the volume of your tank and sump/fuge minus sand and rock?
I've overdosed one of mine once when I could not find my syringe (I eyebald it once using the vodka bottle cap) well, my acros either browned out or went RTN and my LPS threw their polyps. Just be careful. However, I am intrigued by this product that you're speaking of.
 
I have a 55gal dt and 20gal sump 30lbs sand and 50lbs rock. I suppose it's around 55 gal. Net water volume. I have a ton of sps, and they seem happy. Acans brain and torch seem fine too. 6 colonies of zoas are acting weird. I haven't dismissed the idea that it could be completely unrelated to the carbon dosing, but all params are in check.
 
I can't imagine that amount of vinegar, dosed as described, in that size tank would cause the issues. It could be something else in the supplement.
 
I have a 55gal dt and 20gal sump 30lbs sand and 50lbs rock. I suppose it's around 55 gal. Net water volume. I have a ton of sps, and they seem happy. Acans brain and torch seem fine too. 6 colonies of zoas are acting weird. I haven't dismissed the idea that it could be completely unrelated to the carbon dosing, but all params are in check.
I've got about 9 Acan colonies in this one tank. Sometimes they all look great. Sometimes several look great and the others are shriveled that are right beside the good looking colonies. If a colony or frag hasn't recovered after about 3 days, I give it a bath in Revive which usually does the trick.
There will have been a small bristle worm or a pod or something making it mad.
 
Miami Reefer you received this research or beta test product from me. This is not something that is available for sale. The product is nothing more than vinegar combined with a small amount of usp or pharmaceutical grade aspartic acid and glutumic acid. Randy has written many great articles on the benefits of carbon dosing. I have been dosing vinegar for 4-5 years now and like Randy am a strong believer that it works if you understand its limitations. That is at some point nitrates go to zero and we need to reduce the carbon dosing and let nitrate rise. As for AA (Amino Acid), Tim Wijgerde wrote the most recent article on the topic for Advanced aquarist.
A few quotes:
As the organic matrix of corals exhibits an abundance of aspartic acid, it stands to reason thats its supply is critical to coral growth

Aspartic acid in an interesting candidate to start with, given its important role in organic matrix synthesis and skeletal growth. It is possible that corals which receive a concentrated aspartic acid supplement on a daily basis show faster growth compared to corals fed with zooplankton (which may provide less aspartic acid)

Not from the article my thoughts

Amino acids are a great coral food. May be better than other foods as between our bacterial colony feeding on it and coral feeding and skimming it is most likely gone from our system very quickly. Hence feeding AA once a week is like feeding your fish once a week. Not perfect. Continuous dosing makes more sense.

amino acids are a carbon source ! We have learned that sugar and vodka are carbon sources but not as good as vinegar. As they bring on cyano red bacteria. Its possible aminos are even better of a carbon source than vinegar. Combined with vinegar it may help provide us with multi strands or a diversity of bacteria in our system

Miami Reefer said he has seen a decline in both nitrate and phosphates. He also mentioned better polyp extension. Thats 3 positives!!! The only negative is closed zoas? Seems unrelated to me.
I have been dosing this for 4 weeks now. I was dosing vinegar before this, so the only change was the addition of the 2 Aminos. I have seen significant polyp extension on my sps. I have seen tips begin to show faster and new growth. My zoas are fine? I have not seen large nitrate reduction, but have seen phosphate reductions. I think the reason is that aminos like all proteins have nitrates. This may be a blessing in disguise------remember the negative to vineger. It reduces nitrates much faster than phosphates. Hence here we attack phosphate more while feeding corals.

I am not a scientist, I a reefer! But I like to read on our hobby. If we wait for the science and research to show us 100% conclusive result. We are in trouble. As the money for research just is not there. So we need to share our experiences on great forums like this to truly learn and experiment. That is why I have given away a dozen bottles of this stuff to my friends to try. The results of many over some months will give us a better understanding of what this research product is all about.

If you can share articles that discuss this it would be great!

PS: I am not here to promote a product, I am here to furthur our knowledge and discussion on this topic by bringing actual case use and results studies by a small group of beta testers------lets learn together!
polyp.jpg
 
Like I said, Mark knows his stuff. The benefits I've seen out weigh the negatives (if my issue is even related to the carbon dosing). Water is noticeably clearer and I havent scrubbed the glass in a while because I haven't had too. Post up there says all my corals are fine. I was asking Randy his opinion as he is extremely knowledgeable in aquarium chemistry and I know he's been carbon dosing for a long while. I'm interested to see how this stuff affects my system and be able to report back as time goes on
 

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