So we know amino acids are good but my question is should I be buying separate suppliments for that for example coral amino by brightwell? I plan to feed my corals reef roads, two little fishes marine snow and I already have a big refugium but I haven't seeded it in a long time I was gonna buy a mix of rotifers and pods they have on amazon and seed my tank again.
Amino acids?
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Diesel
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The question is how does your tank looks?
Are your corals colorful and have PE?
What's your No3?
What's your fish load?
McMullen
Valuable Member
Diesel
ME=1, CANCER=0.
Is this an assumption that AA supplementation is good?
By regular feedings and good maintenance a system should have enough AA to thrive.
By good maintenance it's not only a water change and clean you glass but also to know how to run a skimmer effective as many skimmers are stripping the tank from nutrients now days.
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Flatlandreefer
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I have wondered about this as well. I just bought some acropower to use in addition to the reef chili, rods food, frozen mysis and brine, and nutrimar ova that I feed my fish/corals. My theory is 1) it is cheap, 2) it doesn't add much to the nutrient load, 3) aminos are said to help trigger polyp extension in sps to get them in feeding mode, and 4) it is a liquid additive that should be easier for sps to uptake than solid foods. I think you can get a higher concentration of aminos that persist longer with a supplement that you won't get by just feeding but this is just a guess and who knows if my corals are limited by aminos but back to 1) its cheap for my nano tank and other people seem to get results.
McMullen
Valuable Member
This has been discussed with research papers attached in other threads. Only 'one,' (so far) amino acid triggers feeding response. I cannot remember which one. No current evidence that I am aware of shows coral are using the AAs in these products. This idea that coral uptake whatever we dump in seems to be extrapolated from humans or mammals being able to uptake AAs. AAs are simply clever marketing. I get more feeding response from taking a turkey baster and blowing detritus around my sump for the return to suck it into my display. My SPS come alive with this. Perhaps I'll bottle some and sell?
It would be AWESOME if a few drops of AAs made coral healthier, more colorful, and or grow faster. It's just doesn't make since with current research. Maybe in time more evidence will conclude a benefit.
It would be AWESOME if a few drops of AAs made coral healthier, more colorful, and or grow faster. It's just doesn't make since with current research. Maybe in time more evidence will conclude a benefit.
mcarroll
10K Club member
Corals certainly can and do use amino acids as a nutrient source....(they use almost anything)....but it's not preferred (vs ammonium or nitrate) and it's not ideal for a few reasons.
Particulate foods are definitely preferred, but they're also easy to over-do since in most systems it's pretty hard to gauge the amount that's being eaten. Also, the PO4 and NO3 numbers (or algae load) take time to adjust. So if you are feeding this kind of food, keep portions measured and make small changes when in increase the amount of food going into the system.
I recommend hatching baby brine shrimp or getting a jar of Ocean Nutrition's hatched baby brine to try out. Lots of other good options, but BBS are an easy one!
I think amino's do have a role as a liquid nitrogen supplement....but I also think most tanks don't need a nitrogen supplement.
IMO, the so-called ultra-low-nutrient tank (anyone running a "method" with a ™ symbol, for example) would be the most-likely target for application of amino acids. They also get a little carbon boost from the amino's that I don't think most of us want. (@Russ265 will be quick to point out that amino's cause cyano to grow in many folks' tanks....I think this is why.)
Not all of these titles sound like a fun read, but all of them have some good info on this topic for us:
- Limited phosphorus availability is the Achilles heel of tropical reef corals in a warming ocean
- Results of the 1991 United States-Israel Workshop, “Nutrient Limitations in the Symbiotic Association between Zooxanthellae and Reef-building Corals”
- Control of phosphate uptake by zooxanthellae and host cells in the scleractinian coral Stylophora pistillata
- The response of the scleractinian coral Turbinaria reniformis to thermal stress depends on the nitrogen status of the coral holobiont
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mcarroll
10K Club member
I forgot to paste the main article link that I wanted in that list above:
Trophic dynamics of scleractinian corals: stable isotope evidence
It's just a couple of examples (to the nth level of detail), but it gives you a good idea what stony corals are capable of in this area.
Trophic dynamics of scleractinian corals: stable isotope evidence
It's just a couple of examples (to the nth level of detail), but it gives you a good idea what stony corals are capable of in this area.
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Does your protein skimmer remove amino acids from the tank if you are dosing. I dose KZ amino for LPS and seachem reef plus for my sps. I have recently placed a tunze 9001 Skimmer in my IM nuvo 40 so I am worried that I am just wasting these products.
acer
Valuable Member
Following along - my corals don't seem to be as colorful as I woud like , but they are still growing? So, purchased the Elos "omega" product of amino acids. - thought I would try it. So following along with this thread. My NO3 is just above zero , and my Po4 is .025. The tank has been running for about 6 months = 150 display with a 40 sump and a 75 refugium ( lots of Cheato and Red grape Macro algae in the refugium.) I am also having some Hair algae issues - so kinda worries about putting additional nutrients into the system. Run a vertex 180 skimmer as dry as possible.
mcarroll
10K Club member
Run the skimmer as wet as possible. Keeps it cleaner and running more efficient.
A sensible target for "how wet" is exactly wet enough so that the skimmer cup is full JUST when you're ready to empty it. I can get to mine about once a week, so I don't have it running full tilt....just enough so it's about full in a week.
If you're trying to get a grip on something that you think is not currently being skimmed out 100%, then skim literally as wet as possible (don't overflow, obviously) and empty the cup 2-3 times a day if you have to.
Keep a close eye on your PO4 while you're messing with the system – raising nitrates can cause a growth spurt to happen in the tank that could use up 100% of the available PO4. Zero PO4 will bring on things much worse than a little hair algae.
In fact, consider hair algae your friend and don't work at all to eradicate it.
Consider it a polite warning from your tank that it's a bit overloaded with livestock – that's it. Not a huge deal. No battle called for.
So don't make it worse and all should be well – don't add more fish, don't start feeding 2x more, etc. A stable bio-load (or even a shrinking one) will be your friend. (More coral can be a stablizing factor, tho.)
The nitrates running so close to zero can be on OK thing if the lighting situation isn't too demanding and assuming flow for the corals is nice. Zero is not good though...corals will ultimately suffer at the hands of their competitors if they are perpetually N-starved.
If they are well fed in some type of particulate feed, this is another perfectly legitimate avenue of N-acquisition for them. This isn't usually true in a home tank, and that style of feeding is too easy to get wrong – you end up bombing your tank with waste food as much or more than you're feeding the corals you have in mind. This is why feeding your fish (which generates particulate food AND ammonium) is really the best best option if you can do it smartly. An Eheim auto-feeder can go a long way toward helping – they are both programmable and VERY reliable! But make sure you're also feeding live foods, high quality frozen and refrigerated foods, etc in addition to any flake or pellet foods being used.
Remember above all else: When you make changes, make them small and take lots of time to observe for changes.....many changes to nutrient cycles (e.g. increases in feeding or water changes, etc) can sometimes take weeks or more to show their full effects.
A sensible target for "how wet" is exactly wet enough so that the skimmer cup is full JUST when you're ready to empty it. I can get to mine about once a week, so I don't have it running full tilt....just enough so it's about full in a week.
If you're trying to get a grip on something that you think is not currently being skimmed out 100%, then skim literally as wet as possible (don't overflow, obviously) and empty the cup 2-3 times a day if you have to.
Keep a close eye on your PO4 while you're messing with the system – raising nitrates can cause a growth spurt to happen in the tank that could use up 100% of the available PO4. Zero PO4 will bring on things much worse than a little hair algae.
In fact, consider hair algae your friend and don't work at all to eradicate it.
Consider it a polite warning from your tank that it's a bit overloaded with livestock – that's it. Not a huge deal. No battle called for.
So don't make it worse and all should be well – don't add more fish, don't start feeding 2x more, etc. A stable bio-load (or even a shrinking one) will be your friend. (More coral can be a stablizing factor, tho.)The nitrates running so close to zero can be on OK thing if the lighting situation isn't too demanding and assuming flow for the corals is nice. Zero is not good though...corals will ultimately suffer at the hands of their competitors if they are perpetually N-starved.
If they are well fed in some type of particulate feed, this is another perfectly legitimate avenue of N-acquisition for them. This isn't usually true in a home tank, and that style of feeding is too easy to get wrong – you end up bombing your tank with waste food as much or more than you're feeding the corals you have in mind. This is why feeding your fish (which generates particulate food AND ammonium) is really the best best option if you can do it smartly. An Eheim auto-feeder can go a long way toward helping – they are both programmable and VERY reliable! But make sure you're also feeding live foods, high quality frozen and refrigerated foods, etc in addition to any flake or pellet foods being used.
Remember above all else: When you make changes, make them small and take lots of time to observe for changes.....many changes to nutrient cycles (e.g. increases in feeding or water changes, etc) can sometimes take weeks or more to show their full effects.
mcarroll
10K Club member
I forgot to address the amino's....doh!
I think in the end I'm more in-agreement with @Russ265 on this, than not. Amino acids aren't the most ideal nitrogen source for this purpose. They come with some carbon atoms and maybe other things attached which seem to favor the presence of cyanobacteria at least as much as they favor coral health.
In general, ammonium seems to be the preferred source of dissolved nitrogen by a good margin...followed in "popularity" by nitrates, then distantly amino acids and urea.
Dissolved nutrients benefit the symbionts before they benefit the coral though, so that is not a perfect, endless solution – dissolved nutrient dosing has limits and "can" induce bleaching.
Really, feeding your fish more – if at all possible – is way better than nutrient dosing.
If you haven't already, check out the Potassium Nitrate/KNO3 thread too!
I think in the end I'm more in-agreement with @Russ265 on this, than not. Amino acids aren't the most ideal nitrogen source for this purpose. They come with some carbon atoms and maybe other things attached which seem to favor the presence of cyanobacteria at least as much as they favor coral health.
In general, ammonium seems to be the preferred source of dissolved nitrogen by a good margin...followed in "popularity" by nitrates, then distantly amino acids and urea.
Dissolved nutrients benefit the symbionts before they benefit the coral though, so that is not a perfect, endless solution – dissolved nutrient dosing has limits and "can" induce bleaching.
Really, feeding your fish more – if at all possible – is way better than nutrient dosing.
If you haven't already, check out the Potassium Nitrate/KNO3 thread too!
acer
Valuable Member
hmm... well I was planning on using the Elos omega AA supplement by adding 2 drops in my frozen fish food concoction = the local reef club made food with fish,scallops,shrimp,etc. and then froze it. I currently add Reefroids every other day and feed the tank once per day. I also feed frozen brine/mysis and just ran out of live black worms that I bought locally I was adding to the food. Livestock is a lot of coral (mostly SPS) and few fish for a 5 foot long 150 display and a total of 200+ gallons in system = 3 smaller perc clowns, a melaranus wrasse, purple firefish, algae blenny, 1 blue damsel, a coral beauty angel, a small cupid angel, and a larger Royal Gramma (who is becoming aggressive) . Lighting is a xr30 Gen3 on one side and and a Reefbreeder 24 on the other. I supplement the LED with 2 x 24 inch T5 Actinics that are only on for 6 hours per day. Flow is pretty high = pushing 2000+ GPH using a Reeflo barracuda from the basement broken up into 4 spray outlets ( one high and one low on each side) and have a MP40 and 2 other powerheads in the display - all Powerheads in the display are set to be ramp up/down.
So maybe just feeding 2 times per day instead of one will solve my issues. I have an Apex auto feeder - just got to figure out how to use it on a Eurobraced tank. I have been afraid to feed more due to the hair algae issue.
So maybe just feeding 2 times per day instead of one will solve my issues. I have an Apex auto feeder - just got to figure out how to use it on a Eurobraced tank. I have been afraid to feed more due to the hair algae issue.
mcarroll
10K Club member
What's the recommended dosage rate for that product?
In general I think I'd say use half or less than the suggested dose.
Then make no other changes to your routine for at least 3-4 weeks and monitor the system, your corals, etc for changes. Hopefully positive signs, but be on the lookout for signs that you may be overdoing it too.
If/when you make changes to your dose rate, make the change small and allow lots of time for testing and observation again (3-4 weeks+ again) to see the full effects of the change.
Same basic advice if you choose to use the auto-feeder instead. Only add small amounts of dry food to the the daily diet in any given change. 3-4 weeks+ for test/observation. Etc. You're right to be careful with it too, IMO. If you have any real worry, or actual problem with it, I would suggest switching to a standalone Eheim feeder. Excellent.
In general I think I'd say use half or less than the suggested dose.
Then make no other changes to your routine for at least 3-4 weeks and monitor the system, your corals, etc for changes. Hopefully positive signs, but be on the lookout for signs that you may be overdoing it too.
If/when you make changes to your dose rate, make the change small and allow lots of time for testing and observation again (3-4 weeks+ again) to see the full effects of the change.
Same basic advice if you choose to use the auto-feeder instead. Only add small amounts of dry food to the the daily diet in any given change. 3-4 weeks+ for test/observation. Etc. You're right to be careful with it too, IMO. If you have any real worry, or actual problem with it, I would suggest switching to a standalone Eheim feeder. Excellent.
Curious reefer
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Wow really good answer.Corals certainly can and do use amino acids as a nutrient source....(they use almost anything)....but it's not preferred (vs ammonium or nitrate) and it's not ideal for a few reasons.
Particulate foods are definitely preferred, but they're also easy to over-do since in most systems it's pretty hard to gauge the amount that's being eaten. Also, the PO4 and NO3 numbers (or algae load) take time to adjust. So if you are feeding this kind of food, keep portions measured and make small changes when in increase the amount of food going into the system.
I recommend hatching baby brine shrimp or getting a jar of Ocean Nutrition's hatched baby brine to try out. Lots of other good options, but BBS are an easy one!
I think amino's do have a role as a liquid nitrogen supplement....but I also think most tanks don't need a nitrogen supplement.
IMO, the so-called ultra-low-nutrient tank (anyone running a "method" with a ™ symbol, for example) would be the most-likely target for application of amino acids. They also get a little carbon boost from the amino's that I don't think most of us want. (@Russ265 will be quick to point out that amino's cause cyano to grow in many folks' tanks....I think this is why.)
Not all of these titles sound like a fun read, but all of them have some good info on this topic for us:
There're a bunch more related articles in the Nutrients section on my blog.
- Limited phosphorus availability is the Achilles heel of tropical reef corals in a warming ocean
- Results of the 1991 United States-Israel Workshop, “Nutrient Limitations in the Symbiotic Association between Zooxanthellae and Reef-building Corals”
- Control of phosphate uptake by zooxanthellae and host cells in the scleractinian coral Stylophora pistillata
- The response of the scleractinian coral Turbinaria reniformis to thermal stress depends on the nitrogen status of the coral holobiont
