Ammonia and nitrate problem persisting

[k_dog345]

Okay well this makes sense to me. I can remove the sand and go bare bottom for a little while...but getting rid of that goby is probably not going to happen. This is my girlfriend's fish. Will he be okay living in a bare bottom tank for a while? He eats meaty foods such as shrimp as well correct?

Speaking of this. How long i
should I stay bare bottom and aggressive water changes?

 

[k_dog345]

I hope I can avoid a flame war here.
I do not agree with the advice you've been given. The tank pictured above IS in trouble. The algae growth on the back wall and power heads, is a bad sign. The bleached, withdrawn, and sickly, looking corals point to an even bigger problem. Even your test results confirm there's a serious problem. If something isn't done, the system will continue on the path it's been on, continue to get worse, and animals will die.

The good thing about nano tanks is that they can be turned around quickly, and with little effort, or expense.

The root problem is the accumulation of excess nutrients. Not just in the open water where they can be detected by test kits, but in the substrate as well. (sand and rock) To turn this system around we need to address both the water and the substrate.

Rinsing the sand and returning it to the system will not accomplish your goal. PO4 adsorbs onto the surface of calcium carbonate. Your sand bed provides massive surface area for the adsorption of PO4. This PO4 can not be liberated simply by rinsing the substrate. However, it can be liberated through biological and/or chemical processes within the system. So, once this sand is returned to the system, it can provide free PO4 that can go on to fuel algae growth and cause problems for stony corals. IMHO, this sand is toast. For a 14 gallon biocube, we're talking about a $20 bag of sand. It's not worth the fight. I would simply trash this sand.

The odds of a sand sifting goby surviving long term in a 14 gallon is very, very, very slim. I would return it to the LFS, and run BB for a period of time.

As I've said, the nutrient issue is in your rock, sand, and water. Trashing the sand eliminates those nutrients held by the sand. Now you're left with the LR and water. A LARGE water change, performed properly, will solve the immediate nutrient issue within the water. Now you're left with the LR. Due to the excessive nutrient level, there will be an abundance of organic material, and bacteria within the LR. A good rinse and maybe a little cleaning, will eliminate much of the excessive organic matter. As with the sand, it will do little for the PO4 adsorbed onto its surface. Now we're left with the bacteria in the LR. The large population of bacteria have been fueled by the excessive nutrient level. After eliminating the excessive nutrients, both in the water and sand, there will be fewer nutrients available to support this population. Microbes will begin to die. With adequate flow and maybe the occasional blasting of the rocks, many of these dead microbes will fall from the rocks as detritus. If you run the system BB for a period of time, this detritus will be easily visible on the bottom of the tank, and easily siphoned out during water changes. Before these microbes die, they will be liberating PO4 from the rock, and incorporating it into their tissues. When they're siphoned from the system, this PO4 will also be removed. In time, the amount of detritus shedding from the rock will decrease, as the population of microbes, and total nutrient levels, decrease. At this point, the system will be much healthier, the overall nutrient level will be greatly reduced, and clean sand can be returned to the system.

I do have one question. Are you using tap water? If so, I'd switch to RO/DI water and discontinue the use of Prime.

I am using rodi water when topping off.

Also, I should mention that the corals are not in terrible shape considering what they've been through. My existing corals went without proper lighting for about a month as my 10k bulb burnt out and getting a new one took a long time. This killed off many of my corals. And the ones that survived shrunk up and became bleached out. Except for my Duncan, that is actually doing best of all my corals so far.

The new corals I've put in my tank in the last month have seemed to do really well. They are opening up and seem to be very colorful. Maybe that's just a coincidence and given time they will become sickly as my others...but the sickly ones I am trying to revive by spot feeding and consistent dosing of alkanilty, calcium and trace elements. This has shown signs of improvement.

Your thoughts on saying that my tank is in trouble may be true and I'm not disagreeing with your opinion. But I've been told in another forum that my bleaching was due to low nutrients, not high.... Your advice does get me to think, because like I've said I've noticed grayish stuff over everything after introducing my goby. He clouded my tank and stirred up my sand bed. Any way, Your premise for these thoughts are the algae on my back wall and my power head? Why are these two things a sure sign of excess nutrients?

Now I'm greatly considering your advice to remove my sand bed and go bare bottom to get my tank even cleaner. But this is a scary move considering my goby, and the fact that my corals have seem to have been doing better. If you stay firm to your idea of my tank needing it, I may just do it. But how long should I do this bare bottom and aggressive water changes?

 

[k_dog345]

Sorry for blowing my own post up but I'd like to share pictures of every thing so I get the best advice. Please note that I took these pictures before my corals have opened up (turned on the lights during their nighttime)

This picture illustrates the grey material on my power head

Closeup of the back wall

More aftermath of the goby stirring up everything

Another shot, my galaxea is going amazing!

I have an air stone running in my return. This is probably a bad shot, but it shows the current dirty state my tank is in

 

[brandon429]

One of the best things your thread is providing readers, in addition to good multi takes on the matter and healthy debate, is simple prep and not rushing.

Your tank is benefitting each step you detail before action, not possible to overpost or overpic. someone else considering your action is reading, for sure.

The bare bottom interval vs new sand vs just rinsed sand is not the make or break, for sure. I can make my very old reef tank do exactly what you have shown above simply by reversing my care methods, and checking back in 8 mos.

*I can use your current sand, rinsed, in any new pico reef and it will look in 7 yrs exactly like my current ones, simply due to guidance. choices in bare bottom, old vs new sand, don't matter long term they are small details but its correct that new sand is a better use of your time. if you don't have any, using the old (rinsed) is still ok. if it wasn't ok, my sandbed wouldn't have lasted nine years in the example thread.

If the sand having complexed some po4 made me stay busy removing some cyano over and over, and replacement waste, then that's a comparatively higher work load pico vs one I may have done with new sand, their coral production is the exact same. I guarantee you not one will have any invader, and nobody could tell visually the difference between the two different beds just looking at the system. Its a nuance, but an accurate one to recommend. You don't have to go bare bottom for X amount of time, it simply means its easier to remove detritus off bare glass than sand grains, but to me it doesn't look very nice. its certainly a change your system was used to, and either way can be made to work.

Our entire hobby for smaller tanks is built on the advise from large tank keepers, not what constitutes the longest running small tanks, and that's a challenge for most small tanks as they copy practices from large tanks, namely smaller water changes E2W, hands off sandbed work to avoid cycles, and daily feeding. this will run its course in the average nano reef by year 3 and will register as various troubles and some of the growth you show above. That growth isn't blanketing your live rocks, they look nice, you've acted in time. Your tank disassembly should be a new tank clean, want to see an example of a nine year old reef cleaned to brand new in 48 hours with no cycle?

http://www.nano-reef.com/topic/3622...ico-reef-last-full-tank-shot-before-cleaning/

True power long term smaller nanos are opposite of hands off, there is no too much water changes, so do them as often as it takes to be detritus free considering the bioloading

So your major needs after your change are bed detailing, siphoning, as that new detritus cast out will simply be right on top for the weekly pickings, nbd with or without sand.

 

[brandon429]

-Guiding-

Your smaller tank will be forever changed by the concept of hands on guiding. 1998 said that messing with your smaller reef tank (small to them was 40 gallons) would destabilize it, not the case. Messing around with detritus stores will destabilize, big difference, so nix the mulm=2016

Your back wall could have been hand scraped clean at any time, during a large tank drain, since todays reef examples provide for that access.

Algae allowed to buildup begets algae, even if your waters are clear of po4 and no3, see any natural reef that supports grazers in hardly detectable po4 waters. tufts catch and hold detritus that you otherwise might have removed, it rots right in place, and is direct feed for that algae colony, algae causes algae too and major algae control threads leave that out

 

[k_dog345]

Brandon, I definitely appreciate your thought out and informative replies. Basically, here is what I am planning to do now:

1) Move all live rock to a separate container for cleaning
- once in container, rinse with high water pressure to blast away the organics and algae growth
2) move all live stock to another container, (keep all inverts/fish seperated) and using 100% used aquarium water, perhaps put my water heater in the holding bin while I work on my tank
3) soak my power heads, bioballs, tray, etc in a 1:1 vinegar/water solution for the duration of cleaning my tank
- after this is done rinse thouroghly
- keep one power head in vinegar solution overnight and one power head in tank after cleaning, next night swap the power heads then finally add them both to the tank fully cleaned
4) now the tank is drained of water, and only has the sand bed
- remove the sand bed
- scrub all sides of the aquarium with vineger and water, rinse well
- replace with new sand bed (AFTER RINSING EVERYTHING INCLUDING NEW SAND)
5) fill the tank with some of new water, and used aquarium water that was being used to contain my livestock (fishes/inverts/corals) after moving them over to bags
6) place live rock in with the tank, let it all settle
7) place power heads, all equip back in the tank
8) dose the tank with prime, calcium, alk, and trace elements
9) after acclimating all fish/corals to the water in the tank, place them
DONE!

What do you guys think? Does this sound like a good course of action?

User @Elegance Coral said he would reply to my post tonight. So I'm going to add some pictures in the next reply on my thread so he, and all others, can view my corals before the cleaning.

 

[k_dog345]

Heres my poor frogspawn that went through a month without proper lighting. He is slowley recovering. I've been spot feeding him with phyto and brine shrimp:

My duncan is another sufferer from the poor lighting conditions my tank went through, but is going strong now!

My new star polyps have been growing ~2 heads a day!

My new galaxea (bought last week) has opened up very fast in his new tank!

My pavona (bought two weeks ago) has the same amount of color it had at the LFS. Id say its doing good

My zoas (bought two weeks ago) have been opening up and showing their colors every day!

Another sufferer of poor lighting for a month, my cabbage leather is looking bleached but slowly regaining color. Spot feeding with phyto.

I'm hoping my blue green sympodium will start doing better (bought two weeks ago) its been the slowest to acclimate to my tank, and opens fully every once in a while.

I forget what this is called, but I bought it last week. Seems to be doing fine.

My acro was bought last week, seems to have retained color!

Another pavona, seems to be doing good. Bought two weeks ago/same color as at the LFS

Hopefully my pictures are giving better insight. As you can see @Elegance Coral , my corals arent super sickly. But maybe they can do better with your prescibed bare bottom technique. Please review my plan, and let me know your thoughts.

One last question....my airstone has been put in my return resorvoir to bring up my PH (which has gone from 7.8 to 8.3). The bubbles it produces around my tank is a bit annoying. Is it recommended to leave it? I might move it over to the same resovoir as my protein skimmer in hopes of reducing the bubbly water look.

Thanks so much to all that have taken the time to read and reply to my post! I'm learning so much! Special thanks to @brandon429 and @Elegance Coral for their long winded replies. I look forward to hearing your thoughts.

 

[Nano sapiens]

I may be a bit 'old school', but I would be cautious of an abrupt loss of beneficial bacteria from power spraying the live rock and then completely replacing the old sand bed with a new one. If it were my personal tank, I would take maybe 20% of the old sand bed and sift it thoroughly in an appropriately sized strainer in fresh salt water to remove the detritus and then mix this in with the remaining 80% new sand bed. Just a bit of extra insurance to help the new sand bed handle any feeding/fish/invertebrate wastes until it has matured.

Also, if you have any Zoanthids/Palythoa I definitely wouldn't power-wash the rock they are on (selective peroxide use on the rock's algae would be preferred). The possible risk of inhaling aerosolized palytoxin is just not worth it.

Good luck!

 

[k_dog345]

Here's a few pics for Brandon. Full post to come

 

[brandon429]

We're covering a lot in pm keep dual convo w me

We need that a bit cleaner on the rinse I know you didn't have enough water are trying best possible


The arrest in my view here is full water change, lowering light levels to avoid stress bleaching until cruise is reset, and get corals into holding bags of clean water until perfectly clean water is had. cloudless is required.


It's handy to know how did the live rocks perform when swished in the holding containers they were alone in? Can they be made to have zero detritus or tested independently of the sand to find out which needs a touch more export?

 

[k_dog345]

All corals are in bags, I have no saltwater left. First thing tomorrow I'll get a big water change done and get these back into the water when my levels are safe.

I have ammonia test and i will take one before bed. Everything else is out of my control until tomorrow afternoon because I have no more saltwater

 

[brandon429]

You have shored up what's possible for sure. The sand and rock sitting there isn't going to nuke itself, it is awaiting good touch up final cleaning on the water column to be changed out as avail, I truly think you worked with what you had well, strong chance here


Did rinsing the sandbed use up your saltwater

Happened to me once

 

[k_dog345]

Honestly Brandon, I may have made a mistake rinsing my sand. I did not rinse with salt after rinsing with tap. I put the sand in a fish net until it stopped dripping then added to the tank with 1/4 tank filled with saltwater. After this I dosed a cap of prime, added my rock and rest of old water and put a power head in.

I may need to do a full water change to correct this. I don't know...what do you think?

 

[brandon429]

That's not so bad imo.
That detritus is evil not the tap

Yes full water change, is a good time to assess your rinse then too, the refill should be starkly clean
You had prime handy, nice ~

It was diluted back out on refill. Full water change when can w fix

I consider the pure rinsing of detritus more important than some left in tap water that got diluted and tank salinity was verified. Tap is not a chlorine bomb that to me isn't terrible event.

 

[brandon429]

** I just pinch zoomed your pics you have open zos on that bottom fts before they were bagged

Will not occur with chloramine burn, ammonia burn. If you delay making the new setup cloudless, this safety window leaves

Sure, not all are open they just came out of surgery, but that's a good sign
You have a clear and multiple benthic indication of no ammonia at least now.

Find us a fanworm that's open if you can they are the best of all



The CPR water change will be nice tomorrow asap, but those few open zos says it's not uber critical this second. I'd still keep bagged animals as is - we are landing under duress a bit but the open corals are a helpful great sign. I can't see how risking all fish in a chain event off one dying as they share the open water overnite is better risk than individual bagging like you've done... lose one no cascade.






Someone reading right now is swearing off detritus for the rest of their reefing career, and may also reference your preps should they have some sort of access emergency like power outs, heater sticks, chemical mis doses, emergency tank repairs etc, we're all in the same mix

It may be tempting in hindsight to regret the cleaning but again I'll say max storage had been attained, action was required, organic dusting was shown on all pre work surfaces. Tank had strong bioloading, action needed.





This light intensity needs to be lowered and ramped up later. this is all part of the challenge of eutrophication reversal we work with what we have

sometimes its time to text via phone in the rare ultra gold thread near loss event, forego the forum posting, this being just that.

 

[Elegance Coral]

Brandon, I definitely appreciate your thought out and informative replies. Basically, here is what I am planning to do now:

1) Move all live rock to a separate container for cleaning
- once in container, rinse with high water pressure to blast away the organics and algae growth

Make sure you use salt water. Don't kill the rocks by using fresh water.

2) move all live stock to another container, (keep all inverts/fish seperated) and using 100% used aquarium water, perhaps put my water heater in the holding bin while I work on my tank

Be very careful with the heater in the small volume of water. It can heat up very rapidly killing your livestock.

3) soak my power heads, bioballs, tray, etc in a 1:1 vinegar/water solution for the duration of cleaning my tank
- after this is done rinse thouroghly
- keep one power head in vinegar solution overnight and one power head in tank after cleaning, next night swap the power heads then finally add them both to the tank fully cleaned

No need for vinegar. We use vinegar to dissolve calcium deposits. You don't have a problem with calcium deposits. This is a problem more commonly associated with lower nutrient systems where coraline algae is prolific. Your problem is filamentous algae, due to the excessive nutrient levels. A bleach/water solution will dissolve this algae and all other organics. Naturally, the power heads would need to be rinsed well before going back in the tank.

5) fill the tank with some of new water, and used aquarium water that was being used to contain my livestock (fishes/inverts/corals) after moving them over to bags

Why are you putting livestock in bags???

8) dose the tank with prime, calcium, alk, and trace elements

Why are you dosing prime? There should be no chlorine or ammonia to worry about.
Why are you dosing calcium, alk, and trace elements? Is your salt mix deficient?

User @Elegance Coral said he would reply to my post tonight. So I'm going to add some pictures in the next reply on my thread so he, and all others, can view my corals before the cleaning.

Sorry. I had to work late.....

 

[k_dog345]

Well guys, it's all done! I'd like to share my experience with all so you can learn from my experience.

I decided to go with rinsing the sand, and while my reef was broke down I cleaned my entire tank including the rocks and hardware. I went this route to help my goby survive, I wanted to preserve the bacteria that was in the sand as well. In short, I learned the hard way doing all this. But recovered the tank quickly.

First thing I did was crack open an ice cold corona in prep for a long night to come.

I scrubbed my sink well, rinsed everything out, and filled it with saltwater so I could use it as a holding/cleaning area for my rocks

Next, I bagged up my clown fish, goby, shrimp, and hermits. Wanted to keep them separate so they wouldn't fight in the holding bucket (wasn't sure this would happen but wanted to be safe)

I drained the tank completely! And moved my rocks to the sink and corals in the tank with the old aquarium water. Then I put my bagged livestock in the same bucket as the corals and put my light on the bucket with a thermometer to keep the water at a stable temp. I also turned off the ac in my apartment to prevent cooling of the rocks in the sink.

I took my hardware out, and put my power heads in a crockpot full of a vinegar water solution and turned them on to breakup all the calcium on it all

I also put my bioballs in a vinegar water solution. MISTAKE: don't ever clean all your bioballs at once, it removes too much good bacteria! Doh!

Now I rinsed the sand in my tub. Made a bit of a contraption to prevent too much loss of sand. Dang, it was a mess and the sand was definitely full of old fish poo and shells. Was starting to think I should've just replaced the sand instead!

Look at this cutie! I also took my aquarium in the bathroom and went to town scrubbing all the built up coralline and calcium from when my tank had less nutrients

Now here's where things start to go terribly wrong for me. After rinsing my rocks very well. I put it all back in along with the water. I notice CLOUDING! I didn't rinse the sand well enough obliviously! Spelt some big trouble for me, the corals I had in the tank started to get really ticked (I had most in bags at this point except for my Duncan and leather) I put it all back in bags. Thanks to @brandon439 for keeping close contact while I started having trouble

I had run out of saltwater, another huge mistake. I rinsed all my hardware and put it back in. And I had everything bagged up and in my clouded tank. I knew it was cycling and the amount of chemicals in that water had to be through the roof. After a full night of stressing out I decided to call it a night due to my loss of control. As I'm typing this I realize that I COULDVE WENT TO THE BEACH AND GOT MORE SALTWATER. Doh! I live in south Florida

Come morning, first thing I did was check my fish. The tank was still clouded. Very sadly, my goby was dead along with my shrimp. I removed the dead animals and tossed them along with the fouled water. I was very upset at this point, as my corals were looking bleached as well. I take a look at my clowns and they were desperately gasping for air. I had to take drastic measures to keep them alive, I couldn't handle the thought of losing them as they were my first fish. I put an airstone in the aquarium, and dosed the hell out of my water with prime. Then quickly released my dying clowns in the water. The laid in the sand, and I thought they were dead for sure. I watched closely and they slowly started to swim towards the airstone and gained a bit of life back. I was a bit relieved but had to go to work, stressing.

I came back home at lunch, while in contact with Brandon, to change my water. I looked at my clowns and they were miraculously swimming around like nothing had happened! I grabbed some of my aquarium water for my LFS to check and was on my way. And dang, my tank was looking clean.

So I went to the LFS, told them my situation. They checked my water, and my nitrites were through the roof. So I was told to replace all the water in the tank. So back home I did so, put my mad clowns back in bags as well.

The next day, I checked my water, and my ammonia was through the roof! Makes sense, because I had cleaned out so much of my good bacteria that my tank was probably going through another cycle. For those that don't know, the bacteria aid in breaking down the bad chemicals. When there is no bacteria, nitrogen spikes along with other toxic chemicals. Which is why it's so important to cycle your tank.

I also noticed more of my corals bleached out. And my temp was at 83! Whoah! I took my lid off and cooled my tank down through the day to change half my water and not shock the system. I also dosed with prime and bactervital to help the bacteria come back

Now I'm on a schedule to change my water once a week, or more depending on chemicals. And test my levels everyday until my tank completes they cycle.

But man my tank looks good as new!

So in total, here's what I lost:
1) my girlfriends poor diamond goby (spot)
2) jeuc, my bandage shrimp
3) my conch

Here's what have been affected, or barely holding on to life at the moment:
1) acro
2) acan
3) blue green sympodium
4) both my pavonas have a little bleaching but are mostly okay
5) star polyps have receded a bit but doing ok

All other corals are doing great or better!
1) Duncan
2) zoas
3) leather
4) frogspawn still slowly recovering


So long read short, here's is what you can take from my experience:
1) if you think you rinsed your sand good, rinse it three more times to be sure.
2) if you think you have enough saltwater, get 10 more gallons just to be sure
3) have an appropriate quarantine area for all your fish and corals, preferably another tank
4) saltwater life can be sensitive, but hardy as well. Never hold back on water changes or cleaning because you think it will affect your life. The worst you can do is allow your sand or hardware start to leak chemicals like mine did because it was so dirty
5) keep in mind your bacteria, you don't want to remove too much. Don't clean all bioballs at once.
6) always check temps, be sure you won't shock your system by adding cold water to hit or vice verse. I've been told 76-78 is ideal temp for saltwater


Thanks to all that followed this thread. Special thanks to Brandon for keeping close contact during my stressed moments. If anyone has comments on how to speed my corals recovery please do so.

Current params:
76 degree Fahrenheit water
Nitrates 20
Nitrites 0
Ammonia .25 detected
Ph 8.3

All chemicals are unstable due to my cycle. I'm to keep a close watch on them and aggressive water changes until everything stabilizes

Thanks again!

 

[brandon429]

That is a wonderful summary and the steps you pictured are directly a help for the next reader. Just because they may be reading your parameters, we have to shore up your ammonia reading. First of all we have to know if its accurate, Google API gives false ammonia reading and tell me if you think it's an accurate reading

Direct action is required in an emergency manner if that reading is accurate, that's how important it is to know if a .25 reading is real or not, it cannot be overlooked in any way but it might just could be disregarded, what's your take after researching it

Consider during the research the use of the additive prime as a further confound

 

[Oldsalt01]

Thanks to all who've input, esp Brandon. A lot of reading but worth the time. So, slight change of plan: I'll sift the sand to remove the dwarf ceriths and tiny baby serpent stars and then dump the sand, scrub the rock to remove the GHA and the slimy blue-green algae and isolate the rock in a bucket w/power head for circulation (for how long???). I think the fish and inverts will be fine for a couple of days in my 5g QT with a couple of small pieces of LR. While I'm about it I might as well scrub down the 14 with RODI and vinegar to remove as much cyano as possible, put it all back together w/o the sand for now until the detritus fallout slows and add new, rinsed sand at a later date. Any other recommendations?

 

[Ryengoth]

I ran 2 29G biocubes for a while and they are a ton of work to keep stable if you overstock. The sand is a huge mistake IMO unless you are keeping your livestock to a pair of clowns and 1 nem. For the 14G, you've got it overloaded IMO, especially with the amount of sand you have. What you just did will need to be done every quarter at least, even with a happy middle filter chamber. You should have just enough substrate to cover the glass. If you need depth, get egg crate, fix your rock and frags and use a thin layer of crushed aragonite as fill around them. Water flow, hermits and shrimp can then help keep the detritus from taking over your tank. I had to use a Cobalt HOT gravel cleaner to clean my sand monthly, just to keep the GHA from advancing. I left the tank running, put filter felt (200-micro) on the filter tray, and ran a second HOT filter to catch as much of the solid stuff as I could. I got tired of the maintenance on 2 tanks and upgraded to a 90 with a 30G sump. LOL