Ammonia: how high is too high

[Malifry97]

We should use the collective power of the chem forum to prove or deny the possibility of sustained .25 ammonia in reefing

Why does it matter if reef tanks can have stuck cycles? Because when you move homes you don't want to lose animals, cycling science needs precision and predictability in order to protect our tanks. perhaps an emergency setup is needed, no wait time permitted or If you are invited to show...

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I would respond with that thread, this tank here is zero ammonia for those reasons above, yet the waste you are seeing compiling does need to be removed, it adds up to algae fuel for sure.

the #1 thing we wouldnt do is buy bottle bac here. its cycled, and zero ammonia.

Figured this would be your response. And people will more readily believe you than me.

 

[brandon429]

I want them to disbelieve me, and whip out the seneyes and try to arrange rocks and sand in any way that keeps .25 on a seneye, they'll never pull it off tho

Today is the first day Ive been nearly exhausted over stuck cycle threads, but it shows there is a need in this hobby, a pronounced one, to get control over the concept of what bacteria do and never, ever do.

All current cycling information ever produced has led us to where we stand today with stuck cycles, many of these stuck cycle events turn into a click to buy bottle bac, Im so against that!

 

[Malifry97]

I want them to disbelieve me, and whip out the seneyes and try to arrange rocks and sand in any way that keeps .25 on a seneye, they'll never pull it off tho

Today is the first day Ive been nearly exhausted over stuck cycle threads, but it shows there is a need in this hobby, a pronounced one, to get control over the concept of what bacteria do and never, ever do.

All current cycling information ever produced has led us to where we stand today with stuck cycles, many of these stuck cycle events turn into a click to buy bottle bac, Im so against that!

For sure. It crazy how much misinformation there is.

 

[brandon429]

tomorrow, between the emergency forum, gen forum, and new tanks forum, we'll have ten stuck cycle threads. they're all the same answer

I feel we are onto something potentially offensive to the 'man', isn't that the only zone where the fun is though

the 'man' is any entity that profits off the notion of stuck cycling, even if they're a lady.

 

[brandon429]

Brakaan

I know its hard to sift specifics out of these volume thread posts. the specific action for your tank is do nothing, even if the waste compounds threefold you will never have true free ammonia, it'll just be an algae risk.

even if your test kit shows .5 later on, its still zero because all fish and animals will be acting happy (and pooping lol) the whole time, they'll be doing what normal animals do. True .25 ammonia would compound to .5 and 1.0 within a few hours, and the whole tank would be dead by tomorrow.

when you wake up and the tank is just fine, and then on saturday too, that is how you know the ammonia is zero and the tester is just plain wrong.

the sum total of all my yapping today about stuck cycles is this: ammonia can never hold at any interval, it must be actively rising to the point of total doom in 12 hours, or it will be trending to zero in that same time frame and stay there. no middle ground, ever. ammonia is all or nothing compound in reefing. the surface area we use involving rock and sand is simply too powerful to leave any trace of ammonia unused unless we are measuring in the hundredths and beyond (seneye digital)

 

[brandon429]

also, post a tank pic please those give all final supporting details. we can prove its cycled nine ways off one single pic.

 

[Magellan]

Brandon knows what the heck hes talking about!!

thank you for fighting the good fight @brandon429

 

[Brakaan]

Brakaan

I know its hard to sift specifics out of these volume thread posts. the specific action for your tank is do nothing, even if the waste compounds threefold you will never have true free ammonia, it'll just be an algae risk.

even if your test kit shows .5 later on, its still zero because all fish and animals will be acting happy (and pooping lol) the whole time, they'll be doing what normal animals do. True .25 ammonia would compound to .5 and 1.0 within a few hours, and the whole tank would be dead by tomorrow.

when you wake up and the tank is just fine, and then on saturday too, that is how you know the ammonia is zero and the tester is just plain wrong.

the sum total of all my yapping today about stuck cycles is this: ammonia can never hold at any interval, it must be actively rising to the point of total doom in 12 hours, or it will be trending to zero in that same time frame and stay there. no middle ground, ever. ammonia is all or nothing compound in reefing. the surface area we use involving rock and sand is simply too powerful to leave any trace of ammonia unused unless we are measuring in the hundredths and beyond (seneye digital)

Brandon,
I’m not lost; I’m enjoying the feedback and appreciate the link to the other thread.

Despite being new to the hobby and posting in a new tank thread, I do feel confident I understand enough of the biology and the chemistry going on to not be worried about a “stuck cycle” or even the threat of rising ammonia levels.

I hadn’t considered the possibility the test could be wrong; mostly since I’ve been at 0 every time I’ve tested it since I cycled 4 weeks ago. I won’t swear the level is .25 ppm. But I am willing to believe the amount of ammonia in the water was higher than it has been.

I think my original question may not have been specific enough. I was not/am not worried that my tank won’t be able to “catch up” and feast on the substrate gold (to mix your metaphors) that is the increased ammonia.

I was just wondering what consequences there might be — if any — to my fish for even a temporary elevation of ammonia. Sounds like very little...

Since I’m not checking ammonia levels ALL the time, I can’t see a trend line and I have no idea where it was or where it’s going. I agree the best indicator is the behavior of the tank inhabitants. All seems well on that front.

Since you seem well-informed on this topic, I’m interested in your perspective on my view of ammonia and nitrifying bacteria colonies:

The bacteria need ammonia to survive. So if there’s not enough ammonia to go around, the colony will die off until ammonia levels start to rise, at which point the colony begins to grow, eventually leading to 0 ammonia and the colony starts to die off again until ammonia levels rise...and on and on it goes. Like a thermostat. The temperature is never actually ALWAYS steady, it’s actually always going just a little over the temp, shutting off then falling below the set temp and turning on etc.

I’m not saying this constant fluctuation is volatile or even detectable. I’m just wondering if maybe I got lucky and checked ammonia levels at a point where it was rising beyond the colony’s capacity to consume. And that if I had checked just 1-2 hours later it would have been 0.

 

[Brakaan]

Double posted. Can’t figure out how to delete

 

[Brakaan]

Here’s a photo of the tank from yesterday:

16g biocube
2 clownfish
1 bicolor blenny
3 astra turbos
1 cerith snail
1 very small zoanthid coral

I plan on just one more fish: a goby (my son Toby wants one...Toby the goby). And then will stock with corals. Recommendations for corals are welcome!

 

[brandon429]

hey good summary, there’s only one thing I would adjust in it: starving out existing bac, can’t be done.

no matter how long we withhold feed, years, the bac are still eating anyway and if we test them years later, they’ll instantly still behave and test like they’ve been fed the whole time. Natural contaminations and stores within the rock feed the bac, even if we withhold.

here is three years no feeding, then instant proof of cycle still in place:

Nano Build - Might start a Nano... 15gal Column (Need advice)

Hello I have a 110gal mixed reef that's doing pretty good. It's 5 years old and i'm happy with it. I have a LARGE maroon clown that decided to knock down large rocks so i'm rescaping the right side of that tank. I have a snowflake clown that has lived in the sump for the past year because the...

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we cannot starve bac if they’re just kept wet!

 

[Brakaan]

hey good summary, there’s only one thing I would adjust in it: starving out existing bac, can’t be done.

no matter how long we withhold feed, years, the bac are still eating anyway and if we test them years later, they’ll instantly still behave and test like they’ve been fed the whole time. Natural contaminations and stores within the rock feed the bac, even if we withhold.

here is three years no feeding, then instant proof of cycle still in place:

Nano Build - Might start a Nano... 15gal Column (Need advice)

Hello I have a 110gal mixed reef that's doing pretty good. It's 5 years old and i'm happy with it. I have a LARGE maroon clown that decided to knock down large rocks so i'm rescaping the right side of that tank. I have a snowflake clown that has lived in the sump for the past year because the...

www.reef2reef.com

we cannot starve bac if they’re just kept wet!

Fascinating.

Correct me if I misunderstand, but what you’re saying is: once a tank is cycled, it should never be able to “uncycle”? Ammonia should never be able to rise and stay up?

If that’s true, could it ever rise to a level that would be harmful to fish? For any length of time?

 

[brandon429]

Cannot uncycle unless we dry the tank, heat or cool it to extremes and sustain them, or administer medication. The bac are adapted to meeting all their needs when hydrated and exposed to common airborne contaminants + all live rock crevices take in waste and those proteins alone feed bac years and years when feed input stops, not even counting environmental contaminants along the way.


for sure deaths of animals inside can spike, fish or snails etc and the levels sure might reach .25 or .5 in a legit reef *but the measure can not hold it will be dynamic, reach a peak and head back to functional zero or just safe levels a common tester would register as zero

even when a big fish dies, we never see that wreck a reef tank or even phase the other fish, the surrounding surfaces are so ammonia hungry the carcass is absorbed. there is a measurable spike but I don’t know how high it goes till a seneye user lets us know. There are probably instances where a single big dead fish caused a loss cascade to the whole tank but it’s so rare I can’t recall a singe tank wipeout, and people post lost fish all the time in the fish disease forums

 

[Brakaan]

Cannot uncycle unless we dry the tank, heat or cool it to extremes and sustain them, or administer medication. The bac are adapted to meeting all their needs when hydrated and exposed to common airborne contaminants + all live rock crevices take in waste and those proteins alone feed bac years and years when feed input stops, not even counting environmental contaminants along the way.


for sure deaths of animals inside can spike, fish or snails etc and the levels sure might reach .25 or .5 in a legit reef *but the measure can not hold it will be dynamic, reach a peak and head back to functional zero or just safe levels a common tester would register as zero

So once the tank is cycled, why even bother to check for ammonia anymore?

Is the same true for Nitrite?

 

[brandon429]

Absolutely 100% fact, your inference is correct. If one can simply account for your fish and or groups of sensitive things like snails, you’ll never do anything to effect ammonia or nitrite dangerously for the life of the tank. Typical losses as natural deaths occur will be uptaken by the system

All cycle charts we can source show ammonia coupled to zero nitrite, forever (barring short fish death noncompliance) at day ~25

bottle bac we use speeds up this timeframe all the charts are built not factoring bottle bac, they’re built from natural contamination pathways.


Since common cycling charts show their trending, we do not have to test. *systems like QT tanks which are missing surface area may stall, kill fish, they don’t apply to our realm as we are always dealing with excessive surface area in reef tanks- rocks and sand. Wonderful input from you that is indeed how it works.

here is a massive thread of cycling complete reefs without testing for anything oh sure they offer me test readings off Api, but I shrug them away and we have never killed one reef or failed to cycle

we can cycle every reef tank, dry and live rock, without a single test param. We use days underwater, which is simply the time axis from all cycling charts. I’m only showing the old science is trustworthy, nothing new to see here other than old school cycling back from the days testers didn’t rule our start dates:

The microbiology of reef tank cycling.

You can skip your cycle. Ive been reefing online for twenty years and have never waited one second for a tank to cycle, because I buy rocks that are already cycled and move them home. Here's two: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/octo-high-end-sps-skip-cycle-build.713256/...

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