Ammonia in INSTANT OCEAN REEF CRYSTALS

[allsite]

First off, I'll just say I'm one sad fish dad. One by one my fish and corals are dying. It's my first reef and my 5 fish were buddies for 2 years. Not a single death until this week.

INSTANT OCEAN REEF CRYSTALS crashed my reef with ammonia. I didn't believe it at first but the tests feel conclusive.

The picture with 2 tubes:
Left: RODI+salt mix (from a pitcher of water with a drop of AmmoLock)
Right: RODI+salt mix

The picture with 1 tube:
Just RODI

Is it in my bucket? Nope, I tested it with a clean pitcher, exact same result. Nothing else touches the water prior to testing.

I have 2 boxes of mix that were ordered several months apart. One brand new, the other about 4 months old. They BOTH produced the same result (as seen in the pic).

All of the tests were done to water that was tank-ready, salinity and temp on par. I'm happy I didn't dump it into the tank but that also mean I'm just letting it die until I get new salt first thing tomorrow. I really hope AmmoLock and bacteria additives can save what little is left (1 clown and a few frags).

My tank is currently testing better than the right tube and worse than the left (forgot to take a photo but it's somewhat irrelevant in this thread).

My question is, how is it possible INSTANT OCEAN REEF CRYSTALS could produce 0.7ppm ammonia seawater? They're just selling poison? Is that not the point when doing a water change, to remove bad stuff while introducing good stuff?

It was traumatic to watch it crash after enjoying it to the max, stuck in a small apartment downtown during a pandemic. However I realize other reefers have incurred much bigger losses and my heart goes out to anyone who has to go through it.

 

[Garf]

Are we dismissing the electrical current? I linked some science on it producing chorine and copper. When I say current, I’m not talking about stray/induced voltage.

Does your heater turn on when the temp probe is out the water and does that defective probe actually control a heater, or just monitor temp?

 

[Kershaw]

There are way to many variables from the OP that I don’t think anyone here can attach cause to any one one thing. My advice to the OP is to start readying over the basics of reef keeping and to not do so much to the tank at one time. When you have a problem measure all water parameters post pictures and ask questions before doing anything.
Nothing good happens fast. Good luck

 

[MnFish1]

Are we dismissing the electrical current? I linked some science on it producing chorine and copper. When I say current, I’m not talking about stray/induced voltage.

To answer your question. I read the thread you linked to - I assume you're talking about the post from @Randy Holmes-Farley where he talked about copper and chlorine? I believe he said that this would take a while (not 20 minutes) but days to cause trouble. I also don't understand how a temperature probe would cause an electrical current? was something else broken in the tank?

 

[MnFish1]

There are way to many variables from the OP that I don’t think anyone here can attach cause to any one one thing. My advice to the OP is to start readying over the basics of reef keeping and to not do so much to the tank at one time. When you have a problem measure all water parameters post pictures and ask questions before doing anything.
Nothing good happens fast. Good luck

I think he is asking questions and reading - which is why he posted in the first place. I think its an extremely interesting discussion, because I think it illustrates a lot of things that are extremely common on these forums - which is 'correlation does not equal causation'. For example the ammonia test/ammonia likely did not cause this problem (i.e. ammonia in the salt). Personally, I dislike the phrase 'nothing good happens fast'. Why? there is no definition of fast or good. I.e. this has led to the almost dogma that unless you take 6 months to build a tank, and then spend 4 months cycling it - while testing every 15 minutes, and then only add certain coral after a year (let alone an anemone). IMHO - teasing out these issues is the purpose of a 'discussion' board.

 

[Malcontent]

yes - I mentioned that as well. I meant in the original post - the tube (I believe) with ammo-lock had less 'green' than the other? maybe I read it wrong.

Usually things like Prime that claim to bind ammonia don't result in lower ammonia tests (or maybe they don't do anything to ammonia at all). Normally, I would expect no effect or, with Ammo Lock, possibly a strong positive interference.

But ammonia tests are finicky and Ammo Lock can do weird things to an already temperamental test.

 

[allsite]

To answer your question. I read the thread you linked to - I assume you're talking about the post from @Randy Holmes-Farley where he talked about copper and chlorine? I believe he said that this would take a while (not 20 minutes) but days to cause trouble. I also don't understand how a temperature probe would cause an electrical current? was something else broken in the tank?

The probe was in for a few days. How it produced current I don’t know but it’s a mod, not a product. I shocked myself about 10 times in a row and it was somewhat painful. No way it was built up voltage discharging. This had some amps.

 

[allsite]

Does your heater turn on when the temp probe is out the water and does that defective probe actually control a heater, or just monitor temp?

The probe is just for readout, unrelated to the heater. The inline heater measures the temp on its own from the plumbing.

 

[NeonRabbit221B]

The probe was in for a few days. How it produced current I don’t know but it’s a mod, not a product. I shocked myself about 10 times in a row and it was somewhat painful. No way it was built up voltage discharging. This had some amps.

Are you using a reef-pi setup? Picture of your wiring I can rule this out fairly quickly. Those probes run 3.3-5v and in the mA range so probably couldn't feel it unless you chewed on it while holding a ground plug.

 

[Garf]

The probe is just for readout, unrelated to the heater. The inline heater measures the temp on its own from the plumbing.

Ok, do you trust it is reading the correct temp?

 

[Malcontent]

Interesting. So current doesn’t kill anything directly But the resultant chemistry potentially creating chlorine or copper released to water could.

@Randy Holmes-Farley Do you think the current could be the issue in this tank?

I don't think AC current can produce chlorine effectively.

 

[shred5]

I use exclusively API tests, which IMHO are just as usefulTake as the rest. As mentioned before, I don't test ammonia, nitrite. In fact I haven't tested PO4 or Nitrate for weeks. IMHO, the problem is people rely on 'tests' too much as compared to 'their own eyes'. IMHO this is what Brandon was talking about. Secondly, it seems like people believe 'the number' as if its perfect. Anything that is being read by 'eyeballs' has a huge margin of error potentially. BUT that margin of error is designed so as not to be 'significant' from a fish health perspective.

Not to mention I have had lots of bad test kits in my life.
I now always test my new kit to my old test kit to see if there is a big swing.
I now own two different test kits for the same parameter that are really important.
@MnFish1 you have had some good advise in this thread.
The whole time I am reading this I am thinking why was another test kit not used.
I know there are a ton of hobbyists in Madison. I am surprised no one offered to help this guy out.
They used to have a very active reef club there too.

 

[Lowell Lemon]

All fish have a lateral line that is very sensitive to electrical current.

I have indeed watched fish die in sea water aquariums due to both induced voltage and direct current. The one article referenced with 50 years of observation was a freshwater aquarium keeper and was another example of opinion and not science. I have used a grounding probe for every seawater for over 30 years due to both experience and science. You definitely cause harm to saltwater fish and inverts with stray current.

Now let the chorus of naysayers begin lol!

 

[MnFish1]

Usually things like Prime that claim to bind ammonia don't result in lower ammonia tests (or maybe they don't do anything to ammonia at all). Normally, I would expect no effect or, with Ammo Lock, possibly a strong positive interference.

But ammonia tests are finicky and Ammo Lock can do weird things to an already temperamental test.

I agree. I dont think you can rely on ammonia tests when those types of products have been used.

 

[allsite]

Are you using a reef-pi setup? Picture of your wiring I can rule this out fairly quickly. Those probes run 3.3-5v and in the mA range so probably couldn't feel it unless you chewed on it while holding a ground plug.

I agree about the low voltage, but as soon as I put in the probe, boom, I can get a nice little stingy zap to my finger. The probe is no longer in the tank, in case that wasn’t obvious. It was just for fun.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I don't think AC current can produce chlorine effectively.

Why not?

What electrochemical reactions do you think are happening at the electrode interfaces when AC current is running through seawater? There must be something taking on electrons and something else losing them each cycle.

If it happens with DC current, it happens part of the cycle when using AC current.

 

[MnFish1]

I agree about the low voltage, but as soon as I put in the probe, boom, I can get a nice little stingy zap to my finger. The probe is no longer in the tank, in case that wasn’t obvious. It was just for fun.

Electricity is not a strong subject for me - so anyone feel free to correct me if I'm incorrect. The probe itself should not be causing 'the current'. Instead, its another piece of equipement that might be producing 'electricity' that is flowing through the water to the probe. Do you have a ground probe?

 

[Lowell Lemon]

@Brew12 perhaps you have some advice for those of us interested in saltwater and electricity?
OP has found electronic devices creating current to his aquarium and experienced rapid die off of several fish due to a cascade of events.

 

[allsite]

Electricity is not a strong subject for me - so anyone feel free to correct me if I'm incorrect. The probe itself should not be causing 'the current'. Instead, its another piece of equipement that might be producing 'electricity' that is flowing through the water to the probe. Do you have a ground probe?

I don’t even have a 3 prong outlet in this room! I’ve ordered a GFCI module and an extension cord. I was going to run an extension cable to my bathroom GFCI but since I was recommended not to do that I bought a GFCI adapter and will run it to the closest 3 prong, just under the room door and a few more feet down the hall. Only after doing that can I use a ground probe, which I’ve also ordered.

 

[NeonRabbit221B]

Single probe right? The only way I can see the probe being the issue is if you had two and 1 wasn't grounded. I am not seeing that as a 4.7K but that should be your issue anyways.

 

[MnFish1]

I don’t even have a 3 prong outlet in this room! I’ve ordered a GFCI module and an extension cord. I was going to run an extension cable to my bathroom GFCI but since I was recommended not to do that I bought a GFCI adapter and will run it to the closest 3 prong, just under the room door and a few more feet down the hall. Only after doing that can I use a ground probe, which I’ve also ordered.

Im surprised (and I would ask your landlord) - that a double pronged outlet is still allowed? I would ask him/her to upgrade that socket perhaps?