Ammonia is our Friend: thoughts needed

[SDchris]

If ammonia was accumulating in the sediment

Inorganic N is not stored as NH3/NH4, NO2, NO3 in the sediment.

NH4 certainly does accumulate in sediments. This:

The mean levels of ammonium concentration in the water column were 0.60 ± 0.18 at Bawe and 0.60 ± 0.16 µM at Chapwani........... Pore water ammonium concentration differed significantly between the sites with 342 ± 68.4 µM of ammonium measured at Chapwani and 690 ± 81.2 µM at Bawe

Measurements of nutrient fluxes revealed that there were movements of ammonium and soluble reactive phosphate from the sediment into the water column

 

[GARRIGA]

I think the only addition I can make to this thread is to note that my tank rock is non porous rock, bare bottom, no skimmer. I have detected the presence of low levels of ammonia, it still readily produces nitrate, always has. I've seen all of the expected delays, compared to live rock.

Regardless how efficient corals would process ammonium, some of it would still get processed by bacteria since they coat everything including the glass. There just would be less of them in bare bottom tank to compete with the corals.

 

[SDchris]

Not sure if this study has been posted before, but seems very relevant:

Unravelling the different causes of nitrate and ammonium effects on coral bleaching​

In particular, nitrate (NO3−) enrichment reduces thermal tolerance while ammonium (NH4+) enrichment tends to benefit coral health.

Here, we demonstrated that the coral Stylophora pistillata underwent a severe oxidative stress condition and reduced aerobic scope when exposed to NO3− enrichment combined with thermal stress. Such condition resulted in increased bleaching intensity compared to a low-nitrogen condition. On the contrary, NH4+ enrichment was able to amend the deleterious effects of thermal stress by favoring the oxidative status and energy metabolism of the coral holobiont.

 

[Doctorgori]

Speaking strictky of water plants which I believe best mimic coral zooxanthella. Same with algae. Based on studies presented in that book by Diana Wadley.

I’ve read this a few times also

How do we know marine microalgae cannot take up nitrate?

What! I thought this was the whole point of a ATS or am I wrong

I think that the main function of high nitrate concentrations is keeping iron oxidized. There are proponents of high nitrate concentrations also recommending regular iron supply. In their world both makes sense. Viewing the bigger picture it maybe doesn't make sense.

Weird I currently have insane Nitrate levels in all three tanks and all have a hard time growing algae, is the take away here some correlation with high nitrates and low iron ?

BTW while I love the correspondence of you smart people talking to each other but sometimes these cutting edge technical threads get rapped up in the techie “butt sniffing” … diatribe only amongst the name brands…..
probably just me but I’m getting indications here the small folks post being glossed over

 

[Hans-Werner]

Not sure if this study has been posted before, but seems very relevant:

Unravelling the different causes of nitrate and ammonium effects on coral bleaching​

There are several studies which all come to the same conclusion: If nitrate is the (only) nitrogen source, it will cause damage in corals. One of the most comprehensive ones is the dissertation of Shantz.

 

[Reefering1]

What! I thought this was the whole point of a ATS or am I wrong

I would think the stuff growing in a ATS is macroalgea

 

[Hans-Werner]

Weird I currently have insane Nitrate levels in all three tanks and all have a hard time growing algae, is the take away here some correlation with high nitrates and low iron ?

Could be iron. The nutrient in the shortest supply will limit growth. This is Liebig's law of the minimum.

Two of the main differences between corals and green algae in nutrient demand is that green algae need more nitrogen and more iron, proven in theory and practice.

 

[Doctorgori]

Not sure if this study has been posted before, but seems very relevant:

Unravelling the different causes of nitrate and ammonium effects on coral bleaching​

thanks, I think the below statement partially explains why shipped corrals arriving in hot funky bags are bleached white within 24hrs …
I realize “correlation doesn’t equal causation” blah blah but this might be blatantly obvious

Here, we demonstrated that the coral Stylophora pistillata underwent a severe oxidative stress condition and reduced aerobic scope when exposed to NO3− enrichment combined with thermal stress. Such condition resulted in increased bleaching intensity compared to a low-nitrogen condition

 

[Hans-Werner]

Speaking strictky of water plants which I believe best mimic coral zooxanthella. Same with algae. Based on studies presented in that book by Diana Wadley.

I don't know this book, what is the title, please?

I have read a book about ecological physiology of algae maybe 30 years ago and in my eyes corals behave more like a microalgal culture.

For a long time I had freshwater tanks with mainly Echinodorus but also other South American plants. In my experience water plants like oxidizing filters and nitrate in contrast to corals. I know Cryptocoryne are different but I have never kept Cryptocoryne.

 

[SDchris]

There are several studies which all come to the same conclusion: If nitrate is the (only) nitrogen source, it will cause damage in corals. One of the most comprehensive ones is the dissertation of Shantz.

Thanks.

 

[Doctorgori]

more clarity than argument but I actually have a so called “Macro Algae” reactor which does chaeto et et …

I would think the stuff growing in a ATS is macroalgea

…but I thought that green slime was hair algae… but admittedly I’m not sure where the line is drawn between what defines “macro” vs “ micro” algae or what species are involved…
Again more curiosity than argument as my so called “macro reactor” only grow ulva, whereas chaeto and glass algae struggle..

…dumbs as it sounds, it would be nice to know the NPK profiles for each algae type including zooxanthellae…
Sorta like applyIng different nutrients and ferts to your roses vs cabbage ( smart folks don’t laugh)

…

 

[Reefering1]

more clarity than argument but I actually have a so called “Macro Algae” reactor which does chaeto et et …

…but I thought that green slime was hair algae… but admittedly I’m not sure where the line is drawn between what defines “macro” vs “ micro” algae or what species are involved…
Again more curiosity than argument as my so called “macro reactor” only grow ulva, whereas chaeto and glass algae struggle..

…dumbs as it sounds, it would be nice to know the NPK profiles for each algae type including zooxanthellae…
Sorta like applyIng different nutrients and ferts to your roses vs cabbage ( smart folks don’t laugh)

…

I agree that could be useful, i really don't know where that line is.

 

[Hans-Werner]

…dumbs as it sounds, it would be nice to know the NPK profiles for each algae type including zooxanthellae…
Sorta like applyIng different nutrients and ferts to your roses vs cabbage ( smart folks don’t laugh)

I admit, I laughed briefly. But basically this is my approach, but most reefers dont want to grow zooxanthellae but they want to grow corals. The nutrient demands of corals, especially SPS are different form zooxanthellae and even different from the whole living part of the holobiont.

In SPS most of the trace elements and phosphate go into the skeleton and not in the soft parts. No matter if this is essential for calcification or just by accident, the nutrients go there and they must be replenished. This causes a significant shift in N : P ratio in demand.

To make a long story short, when I am writing, nutrient ratios are important for the supply and not for the standing stock, it is exactly this approach.

For the standing stock of nutrients, the uptake kinetics I have shown in one of my earlier posts are very important. Usually the optimum ratios of nutrient standing stocks are different from uptake ratios since uptake kinetics for different nutrients differ and even differ for the same nutrient at different concentrations.

The Redfield ratio is an uptake ratio, needed for growth/biomass and doesn't work for the standing stock of nutrients, not even for microalgae.

For a continued and constant nutrient supply nutrient ratios make sense because a dynamic equilibrium may form when dosing will meet consumption. If the supply and the consumption are equal, a dynamic equilibrium will form and stay at a constant low level. This is the same idea as your dedicated fertilizer idea.

 

[Dom]

Yes, nitrifiers are inevitable.

The proposal is that many tanks do not need them, and in such tanks, encouraging them by adding them or media to support them may be undesirable.

It all comes down to this:

I’m not trying to come up with an improved way to start a tank, although that might possibly happen.

I’m trying to get folks to stop pushing more and more nitrifiers as good, and what better way to do that than start a tank without the usual intense focus on them.

If I'm understanding correctly, I can setup a tank and immediately populate it with coral and fish because the coral will take up ammonia in the new system?

 

[Dom]

For example, starting with plenty of macroalgae, soft corals, and coralline right from day or week one. No fish, or perhaps only an algae eating fish , etc.

With no fish, what is the source of ammonia?

 

[Lasse]

NH4 certainly does accumulate in sediments. This:

I´ll think its a matter of words. fFor me - if you should have an equilibrium process - compounds going back and forth - it needs to be stored. In this case NH3/NH is produced from stored organic matter in the sediment by bacteria - going into the poor water (the water in the sediment) and after that diffuse into the water column-. Its only higher concentration (your accumulate) in the poor water compared to the water column because that production rate is higher than diffusion rate. If production in the sediments stops - the diffusion will cause the NH3/NH4 in the poor water to be the same as in the water column. Its not an equilibrium process like the one between metal bounded PO4 in the sediment and PO4 in the water. Its a simple diffusing process depended on production rate of NH3/NH4 in the sediment and concentration in ambient water column

You can see the same in my plenum below my DSB - ammonia is produced and transported (with force) into the water column in my DT.

If nitrate is the (only) nitrogen source, it will cause damage in corals.

My bold - as you can see above - in my aquarium is not the only inorganic source.

thanks, I think the below statement partially explains why shipped corrals arriving in hot funky bags are bleached white within 24hrs …
I realize “correlation doesn’t equal causation” blah blah but this might be blatantly obvious

I doubt it is because of high NO3 concentration - more likely for me is that it is caused of to high NH3/low O2 concentrations from the dark respiration of the corals during the transport.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[GARRIGA]

I don't know this book, what is the title, please?

I have read a book about ecological physiology of algae maybe 30 years ago and in my eyes corals behave more like a microalgal culture.

For a long time I had freshwater tanks with mainly Echinodorus but also other South American plants. In my experience water plants like oxidizing filters and nitrate in contrast to corals. I know Cryptocoryne are different but I have never kept Cryptocoryne.

Ecology of the Planted Aquarium

Highly respected in the FW planted aquarium scene. Their Julian Sprung.

If I recall correctly, they tested several plants and concluded ammonium their preferred nutrient over nitrates. Something I considered once I learned plants needed to down convert nitrates. Just seemed logical. Although she did mention not all plants behave this way. She may have mentioned something about terrestrial plants but don't hold me to it. I tend to drift on subject matter I lack interest in.

 

[GARRIGA]

more clarity than argument but I actually have a so called “Macro Algae” reactor which does chaeto et et …

…but I thought that green slime was hair algae… but admittedly I’m not sure where the line is drawn between what defines “macro” vs “ micro” algae or what species are involved…
Again more curiosity than argument as my so called “macro reactor” only grow ulva, whereas chaeto and glass algae struggle..

…dumbs as it sounds, it would be nice to know the NPK profiles for each algae type including zooxanthellae…
Sorta like applyIng different nutrients and ferts to your roses vs cabbage ( smart folks don’t laugh)

…

Isn't micro single cell such as green water or what the hobby calls phyto?

 

[Lasse]

So why should it be necessary to dose any nitrogen at all?

I do not dose any inorganic nitrogen. The only nitrogen getting into my system is organic (in the food) Internal processes (fish, bacteria and other organism) does the mineralisation into inorganic nitrogen for the photosynthetic organisms that need it. However - if I get cyanobacteria mats - I check my NO3 values. Its not always correlated with NO3 below 1 but often enough to use the trick to dose NO3-

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Lasse]

Isn't micro single cell such as green water or what the hobby calls phyto?

They can be benthic too and not always single cells. They can also create colonies that we can see with the naked eye

Sincerely Lasse