Amonia won't drop in cycle?

[duganderson]

I'm cycling a small (2 g) JellyFishArt aquarium. Low flow and no heater. I started the cycle 8 days ago with starter and I've added Seachem Stability daily. The ammonia still has not dropped from 4.0 PPM using API. I am using Dr. Tim's Ammonia for my ammonia. Still have 0.0 Nitrates using API.

Shouldn't the ammonia have dropped by now? I am not continuing to add Ammonia. The ammonia is staying at 4.0 PPM using API>

Should I just restart the aquarium and cycle?

The only quirk was the following....On day 5 I accidentally bumped the salinity from 1.21 to 1.25 instantly. Long story how I did this?

 

[Brew12]

I'm cycling a small (2 g) JellyFishArt aquarium. Low flow and no heater. I started the cycle 8 days ago with starter and I've added Seachem Stability daily. The ammonia still has not dropped from 4.0 PPM using API. I am using Dr. Tim's Ammonia for my ammonia. Still have 0.0 Nitrates using API.

Shouldn't the ammonia have dropped by now? I am not continuing to add Ammonia. The ammonia is staying at 4.0 PPM using API>

Should I just restart the aquarium and cycle?

The only quirk was the following....On day 5 I accidentally bumped the salinity from 1.21 to 1.25 instantly. Long story how I did this?

The bump in salinity won't matter. Just give it time. Some times these bottle bacteria products work better than others, especially at higher ammonia levels. It will come down as long as you used good quality water to start it with.

 

[duganderson]

The bump in salinity won't matter. Just give it time. Some times these bottle bacteria products work better than others, especially at higher ammonia levels. It will come down as long as you used good quality water to start it with.

Would it help to add a heater and airstone to speed up the cycle OR is that bad since those will not stay in the tank when the Jellies are added?

 

[Brew12]

Would it help to add a heater and airstone to speed up the cycle OR is that bad since those will not stay in the tank when the Jellies are added?

I believe in letting it cycle in the conditions that the tank will be operated in.

 

[brandon429]

It’s important to know that even if your levels did change in eight days, that’s still not cycled and the lack of change doesn’t mean the cycle failed, when you added water the cycle was as good as done, after the right time goes by.


There is a submersion time requirement that supersedes what test kits indicate regarding accurate cycling, as soon as that fact is mentioned in cycling threads and articles then peoples cycles will start to seem inline and in compliance as they really are. cycles don’t stop, we don’t stop them. Once water is added, in forty days everything lines up even if the boosters you added are guesstimated
-even if your nitrite hit 7 ppm-
Or your ammonia hit eleven, your cycle doesn’t stop or I would have just used 11 ppm ammonia water to sterilize my bac lab at work.

When your test kits don’t measure up -after- the required submersion times that means something, when they don’t line up 4x quicker than the required submersion time for cycle completion, it doesn’t mean anything.


Brew

I wish you’d include some aspect of this microbiology/time requirement in your thread. I’m floored that nobody covers biofilm adhesion timing in what are essentially microbiology threads. It’s ironic that every chart on google shows the time duration without all the pages and pages of intricate param testing we like to run nowadays, and stall claims we entertain. if cycles stalled, then half of the four million search returns would show a 70 day cycle chart on google images, but they’re all forty or less. All four mil.

We lost some sight of old school rules the fancier we got with our api titrations. Just because cheap colorimetric testers no three people evaluate the same said something, we as a hobby decide to upend about fifty years of microbiology that amazingly runs other industries like clockwork but somehow in an aquarium finds a way to break all known laws of nature

Let the record reflect, if aquarists truly had the ability to kill bacteria in liquid solutions as easily, big industry would be seeking us out as consultants on how to apply that large scale. Or, they’d just lightly spray each surface with nine ppm nitrite water and close shop for the day.

 

[Softhammer]

Complete cycles take months. Not days.

 

[brandon429]

You mean weeks, right?

 

[WVNed]

And there is the rub. It can take days or weeks or months depending on where you start and what you use.
Cycling is determined by a completion of a series of events and not an arbitrary time frame.

but

When I make bread I proof the yeast. It proves the yeast is still alive and you can raise bread with it. If we are going to rely on live biologicals to start tanks we need to come up with a way to do the same thing.

 

[Brew12]

Considering the term cycling refers to the nitrogen cycle, is it ever complete?

 

[WVNed]

Considering the term cycling refers to the nitrogen cycle, is it ever complete?

I dont use the term myself. I think of it like starting an engine. You only describe it as cranking if you are starting a cold engine. The conditions to start a cold engine are not the same ones to keep it running a 6000RPM.

 

[Brew12]

I dont use the term myself. I think of it like starting an engine. You only describe it as cranking if you are starting a cold engine. The conditions to start a cold engine are not the same ones to keep it running a 6000RPM.

I'm not a fan of the term cycling, either. What most people care about is if a system is safe to add a CuC or fish. That is a much different question than if my tank has "cycled".

 

[brandon429]

Brew

Depends which param of the three we care about

Regarding biosystem ammonia oxidation, it’s so complete and finite we can look at a pic and ask a couple questions and know ammonia with no tester, owning an ammonia test kit isn’t required in reefing, even to cycle dry materials. ammonia oxidation integrity is the most predictable chemistry aspect in reefing which requires no actual testing...it’s finite in terms of meeting the plot specifics on four million cycle charts online...all showing the same timing. Not one taking seventy days, for example, which would indicate that cycles stall *using normal amounts of surface area during the cycle* which is what those charts reflect. I know that a qt tank using one elbow of pvc as surface area might misbehave on a 4 ppm oxidation test



Not saying a seneye can’t count the molecules as they’re being produced, input never stops. am saying after submersion times are completed, ammonia is forever taken care of from the biofiltration perspective, it doesn’t undo.

It never, ever, ever rises to .25 and stays there in a reef tank while all animals swim about just fine...though there’s thousands of threads saying it does. Thank you api and the occasional salifert heh

Incomplete cycle: tank cannot pass a full water change and still support its target bioload without ammonia build up and death

Complete cycle: it can. The death mechanism between the two isn’t nitrite or nitrate, it’s ammonia, so that shows which parameter matters.



In this two gallon tank, what’s the surface area, is it a filter compartment or is there rocks and sand

 

[Brew12]

Brew

Depends which param of the three we care about

Regarding biosystem ammonia oxidation, it’s so complete and finite we can look at a pic and ask a couple questions and know ammonia with no tester, owning an ammonia test kit isn’t required in reefing, even to cycle dry materials. ammonia oxidation integrity is the most predictable chemistry aspect in reefing which requires no actual testing...it’s finite in terms of meeting the plot specifics on four million cycle charts online...all showing the same timing. Not one taking seventy days, for example, which would indicate that cycles stall *using normal amounts of surface area during the cycle* which is what those charts reflect. I know that a qt tank using one elbow of pvc as surface area might misbehave on a 4 ppm oxidation test



Not saying a seneye can’t count the molecules as they’re being produced, input never stops. am saying after submersion times are completed, ammonia is forever taken care of from the biofiltration perspective, it doesn’t undo.

It never, ever, ever rises to .25 and stays there in a reef tank while all animals swim about just fine...though there’s thousands of threads saying it does. Thank you api and the occasional salifert heh

Incomplete cycle: tank cannot pass a full water change and still support its target bioload without ammonia build up and death

Complete cycle: it can. The death mechanism between the two isn’t nitrite or nitrate, it’s ammonia, so that shows which parameter matters.



In this two gallon tank, what’s the surface area, is it a filter compartment or is there rocks and sand

I can take a brand new tank, full of dry rock, dry sand, and freshly mixed seawater. Bring it to temperature, stock it with macro algae in the DT and a reverse light cycle fuge, and it would pass your definition of complete cycle. No immersion time necessary. No nitrifying bacteria needed.

 

[brandon429]

The seawater is the renewed bottle bac analog in that case
that's darn good tho

if u meant synthetic water-
im only remarking on microbial surface cycling which plants won't affect, but agreed are always welcomed in cycling tanks as beaslbob would agree. If plants are doing the workhorse load to protect bioload that's not my scope for the measure.


With a large enough refugium brightly lit that's a darn good call for quick ammonia support in general though, talk about a quick hospital tank or rescue tank approach if needed.

 

[duganderson]

Thanks for the thoughts.

Someone asked about what bio filtration is in the tank. There is nothing in the diplay but a sponge that's probably 5"x5"x1" (but hard to calculate because it is not actually rectangular on one of the plances. There is also about 90% of a bottle of SeaChem Matrix (their smallest bottle).

 

[MnFish1]

I wish you’d include some aspect of this microbiology/time requirement in your thread. I’m floored that nobody covers biofilm adhesion timing in what are essentially microbiology threads. It’s ironic that every chart on google shows the time duration without all the pages and pages of intricate param testing we like to run nowadays, and stall claims we entertain. if cycles stalled, then half of the four million search returns would show a 70 day cycle chart on google images, but they’re all forty or less. All four mil.

There is a difference between 'killing' the bacteria and 'slowing its growth'. There are numerous mentions from the different manufacturers of 'bacteria' that high ammonia levels inhibit growth of these bacteria. I agree with others - what is a 'complete cycle'. Even with 'biofilm' the number of bacteria present will only grow to the point of the level of nutrients. If you 'cycle' a 100 gallon tank with 2 mollies and then try to add 6 tangs after the 'cycle' - you will have major problems IMHO.

 

[brandon429]

Disagreed, and doesn't line up with any work threads again. What is covered in the thread: once a 100 gallon reef *using normal amounts of rocks n sand* is cycled as you put it using mollies or even a few months as totally unassisted cycle, it runs the bioloading relative to 4~ or a little better ppm ammonia per day, doesn't matter how you divide it. The mollies during the cycling phase either boost TIME or they don't, and the unassisted timeline follows (they'll boost it a bit)

Surface area is the limiting factor, and time, but not the source of the ammonia. Mollies v tangs whatever is max 4 ppm


This inference can easily be drawn off the fallow tests. If bacteria lessened over restricted feeding time, they couldn't oxidize the same ammonia as a passed oxidation test after thirty months unfed but only kept wet.

Humans don't control bac density on surface area like we'd like to, hydration does. Water shear does, and intra matrix competition among competianthropomorphisc. They get food bc we're not working in containment labs. we anthropomorphism

Once set, adding fish doesn't add more notable bac, vital space was already maxed

being able to digest 4ppm proves any substrate has a ready complement and fallow testing proves it doesn't downscale

Y'all make some threads on it with tests then u catch my eye

 

[MnFish1]

Disagreed, and doesn't line up with any work threads again. What is covered in the thread: once a 100 gallon reef *using normal amounts of rocks n sand* is cycled as you put it using mollies or even a few months as totally unassisted cycle, it runs the bioloading relative to 4~ or a little better ppm ammonia per day, doesn't matter how you divide it. The mollies during the cycling phase either boost TIME or they don't, and the unassisted timeline follows (they'll boost it a bit)

Surface area is the limiting factor, and time, but not the source of the ammonia. Mollies v tangs whatever is max 4 ppm


This inference can easily be drawn off the fallow tests. If bacteria lessened over restricted feeding time, they couldn't oxidize the same ammonia as a passed oxidation test after thirty months unfed but only kept wet.

Humans don't control bac density on surface area like we'd like to, hydration does. Water shear does, and intra matrix competition among competianthropomorphisc. They get food bc we're not working in containment labs. we anthropomorphism

Once set, adding fish doesn't add more notable bac, vital space was already maxed

being able to digest 4ppm proves any substrate has a ready complement and fallow testing proves it doesn't downscale

Y'all make some threads on it with tests then u catch my eye

Im not sure you're understanding what I wrote. I said - if you take 1 or a couple mollies in a 100 gallon tank, the bacteria will only multiply /live to the amount of ammonia generated. If after 3 months you add 4 large tangs to that tank you're likely to have problems because of the large influx of ammonia.

You also added a new parameter that I didn't - ie. the 4 ppm ammonia level - I didnt say anything about that. It is well known that many of the nitrifying bacteria enter a resting phase when the ammonia level is low - And they will only grow to the level of ammonia to which they are initially exposed to.

 

[brandon429]

the bacteria will only multiply /live to the amount of ammonia generated

that's the part I debate. it implies that bac have no other way to gain support and feed unless we will them something

if you hydrate complex surface area, bac fills in over time if we add nothing, and they don't go away when we withhold. adding or subtracting feed doesn't alter long term colony counts very much, there are bioregulators that do within the environment. all we do is either speed up the unassisted cycling time, or not

im not saying bac colonies stacked on surfaces wont boon and subside based on excessive feed amnts, up to a point they will. the most important takeaway is that the lesser possible amnts, the amnts starved for extreme fallow testing while relying only on what hydration provides (and catches as feed) still cover all known normal reef bioloads.

an inverse test proving surface area is the limiter: try and cycle an empty ten gallon tank using any method, glass walls only. use mollies and then test for molly waste amnts, it wont pass. not enough surface area, we can't stack enough colonies on slick glass to compensate w stronger initial ammonia sourcing bc only surface area and time matter

 

[brandon429]

also, this analogy tests claims about limitations:

if bac req extra feed to become fixed, then why does hooking up nine extra canister filters to your already running fine tank yield 9x fully cycled reef materials in a month? Your current filtration was supposedly using up all the feed needed since you had no free ammonia. how did the extra canister filters add mass, bac, off the same feed amnts you were already reducing?

if you take away all those canisters at once, no down ramp, does your free ammonia skyrocket>?

you can hook up an infinite amnt of canister filters inline all at once and they'll all self cycle in a month, and you can always take them all away instantly and never recycle the main tank if the bioloading amnts never changed.

a typical bioloading runs, and is ran by, one canister filter, or eighty, or none, where rocks and sand are an avail alternate surface area. if your procedure was in place, all added canister filters would never self cycle since no new ammonia was added.

water=everything they need all we do is cheat the timeframes.

if we don't rush the molly analogy timeframe: give three mollies in a 100 three months time, then add five tangs and it'll pass just fine. three mollies/tangs/dry substrate off 9 days not fair timeframe. three months submersion with any boosts (even light molly loading compared to a consistent 3 ppm the whole time, lets say) equals a fully cycled reef in three mos, even if you had perfect boosts and bottle bac added the whole time. same ends. if you were racing for nine day completion, then the precisely fed and guided one is the best bet