An interesting Idea about 'New tanks'

[MnFish1]

I have read at least a couple posts (or a couple thousand) - about the importance of tank maturity when adding more 'finicky' corals, anemones, etc. Many seem to feel this is due to lack of biodiversity. I have a problem with this philosophy, simply because tanks get older - from what I understand biodiversity decreases rather than the other way around. Anyway, the idea:

Could part of 'new tank' issues relate to all of the new equipment releasing various toxins (for example, its well described that tin can be released from PVC plumbing, and that this significantly decreases as the tank ages). Could there be other minerals, metals, etc - that could be being released in levels that though they may not kill outright SPS, anemones, etc - but enough to make them do poorly - just food for thought? Comments? @brandon429? @taricha?

 

[PeterC99]

Interesting theory.

I have bought a lot of used equipment. Wondering if this helped getting things established quicker? Instead of the new stuff breaking in and leaching certain chemicals?

 

[WVNed]

So this new tank is at the point of it's maximum diversity?

You premise is silly.

 

[Dolphins18]

I’ve found that starting a tank with live rock from an existing tank (at least 5 years old) eliminates the issues.
these tanks have new equipment and PVC. It’s been set up for about a week (using rock I’ve had for 15+ years)
So many people (myself included) start with dry rock and this takes months to even begin getting established. I for one do not use that bacteria in a bottle stuff that many use these days and I see far less issues starting new tanks with dry. I think starting with dry rock as a beginner is a huge mistake.

Flame back is in there because he could not behave with LPS
To be honest it all comes down to the rock, a tank started with dry rock will have 0 biodiversity, while one started with true live rock from the ocean may have more biodiversity than one started with live rock that has been in a tank for many years. This is because much of the biodiversity from the ocean will not survive the shipping and the changes in water, ultimately leading to a cycle either way. So to your point, rock harvested from the ocean would see a decrease in biodiversity over time, while dry rock can only increase over time, with “aquacultured” rock having a stable medium. Hope this helps

 

[MnFish1]

So this new tank is at the point of it's maximum diversity?

You premise is silly.

OBVIOUSLY - you misinterpreted my 'premise' completely. My 'premise' - was could toxins released from new equipment/plumbing be part of the issue of why one cannot add new items to a tank that many people seem to suggest take months or years of tank maturity.

OBVIOUSLY - the tank you showed Will gain biodiversity as fish, coral, inverts are added. This will also include increased bacterial diversity until the niches in the tank are 'filled'. After that point what happens????

The point about biodiversity is that the biodiversity of a tank tends to DROP over time - as compared to INCREASE. Thus biodiversity ALONE cannot be the reason more mature tanks do well (Note I'm not talking about tanks that add mud, etc over time - though this has also been shown at least to some extent to not be very effective.

So, I guess you could say 'my premise is silly', but without at little more discussion, your 3 word reply seems unhelpful to the discussion.

 

[MnFish1]

PS - I believe that @AquaBiomics research somewhat confirms my comment about biodiversity, but even if it is incorrect, the question still stands - whether part of 'new tank' syndrome relates to tin, etc release - from various new equipment

 

[LRT]

I have read at least a couple posts (or a couple thousand) - about the importance of tank maturity when adding more 'finicky' corals, anemones, etc. Many seem to feel this is due to lack of biodiversity. I have a problem with this philosophy, simply because tanks get older - from what I understand biodiversity decreases rather than the other way around. Anyway, the idea:

Could part of 'new tank' issues relate to all of the new equipment releasing various toxins (for example, its well described that tin can be released from PVC plumbing, and that this significantly decreases as the tank ages). Could there be other minerals, metals, etc - that could be being released in levels that though they may not kill outright SPS, anemones, etc - but enough to make them do poorly - just food for thought? Comments? @brandon429? @taricha?

Interesting and idk. My old system was built from mostly slightly used reef gear with a bunch of non reef related things mixed in. Tubs etc.
My new tank build i used mostly new pumps. Used my old skimmers but all new plumbing etc.
Besides a bacterial bloom the first week of swap. Tank really hasn't missed a beat. I think my success mainly came from using my ocean rock from old system
I didn't realize that over time a tanks biodiversity lessens ill have to read up on that. I feel like in my new system as it gets broken in it is growing. Covering new surface areas etc.
Great topic

 

[gobygrits]

Couldn't you just start a new tank with all brand new equipment and run some icp tests to see if any of the brand new equipment is an issue?

 

[WVNed]

Many seem to feel this is due to lack of biodiversity. I have a problem with this philosophy, simply because tanks get older - from what I understand biodiversity decreases rather than the other way around. Anyway, the idea:

If this had nothing to do with your premise why did you put it in there.

I haven't experienced the problems you like to discuss and find magical causes to.
So I don't feel comfortable commenting on them.

I stuck a nem in a new tank that was 20 days old. It has lived through a move to a new house and 2 further tank upgrades. It's over there right now.

I am 99.2% sure new tank problems are caused by new tank owners.

 

[Dolphins18]

Many seem to feel this is due to lack of biodiversity. I have a problem with this philosophy, simply because tanks get older - from what I understand biodiversity decreases rather than the other way around. Anyway, the idea:

If this had nothing to do with your premise why did you put it in there.

I haven't experienced the problems you like to discuss and find magical causes to.
So I don't feel comfortable commenting on them.

I stuck a nem in a new tank that was 20 days old. It has lived through a move to a new house and 2 further tank upgrades. It's over there right now.

I am 99.2% sure new tank problems are caused by new tank owners.

I am 99.2% sure it all has to do with biodiversity. Please explain to me how a tank started with dry rock and sand (0 biodiversity) can somehow decrease in biodiversity over time?
The point stands if a tank is started with live rock, but a tank started with dry rock can not decrease in biodiversity.
It can increase and plateau over time, and then decrease, but you can't start with 0 biodiversity and then go negative. I would agree with you for the most part, but it all depends on where you start. Again, live rock from the ocean will decrease over time, but not dry rock.

 

[Jekyl]

I have read at least a couple posts (or a couple thousand) - about the importance of tank maturity when adding more 'finicky' corals, anemones, etc. Many seem to feel this is due to lack of biodiversity. I have a problem with this philosophy, simply because tanks get older - from what I understand biodiversity decreases rather than the other way around. Anyway, the idea:

Could part of 'new tank' issues relate to all of the new equipment releasing various toxins (for example, its well described that tin can be released from PVC plumbing, and that this significantly decreases as the tank ages). Could there be other minerals, metals, etc - that could be being released in levels that though they may not kill outright SPS, anemones, etc - but enough to make them do poorly - just food for thought? Comments? @brandon429? @taricha?

I always attributed "maturity" to balance rather than diversity. Our tanks are constantly going through various cycles. The nitrogen cycle is just the one that gets the most attention. As a tank matures all of the chemical processes are going through warfare to try and balance everything out. These processes are what cause corals and anemone to be upset. Just my .02$ and maybe I'm wrong.

 

[Lowell Lemon]

No question in my opinion that new plumbing releases toxic chemicals into the water system. That is why we would allow all pvc to dry 24 hours before starting a new system. Then we would use a freshwater flush for a couple of days or more and drain the system. In many systems I would run carbon during the flush. After all this if we could still smell the chemicals from the solvents we would flush again. Next would be to start the saltwater mix and then add some seeded live rock to get to get the filter started. After a week or so we would start with some fish and build up the bio load while watching the ammonia levels. The main biological filter was a large trickle tower with a pressurized flood cone and some air injection at the base of the tower. Of course we also ran chemical, mechanical, temperature control and U.V. and ozone injection into the skimmers as well. The success rate was quite high and the fish and inverts did very well. Each system was built for inverts, fish, and fresh or saltwater. We also had cold water and tropical fresh water on separate systems. Used the same set ups for our maintenance customers for years with great success. The start in each saltwater system was always seeded live rock then inverts and later fish (at about 3 to 6 months from invert introduction). We never really had a disease problem unless we rushed the fish introduction into a reef aquarium.

 

[elorablue]

Definitely need to quarantine new equipment for 76 days.

 

[WVNed]

I am 99.2% sure it all has to do with biodiversity. Please explain to me how a tank started with dry rock and sand (0 biodiversity) can somehow decrease in biodiversity over time?
The point stands if a tank is started with live rock, but a tank started with dry rock can not decrease in biodiversity.
It can increase and plateau over time, and then decrease, but you can't start with 0 biodiversity and then go negative. I would agree with you for the most part, but it all depends on where you start. Again, live rock from the ocean will decrease over time, but not dry rock.

LOL
That was a quote from the OP. Not me.
Argue with him. I told him it was silly and he got mad at me.

 

[Dolphins18]

LOL
That was a quote from the OP. Not me.
Argue with him. I told him it was silly and he got mad at me.

I realize that, I am working - apologies

 

[ZoWhat]

I am 99.2% sure new tank problems are caused by new tank owners.

 

[ZoWhat]

No question in my opinion that new plumbing releases toxic chemicals into the water system. That is why we would allow all pvc to dry 24 hours before starting a new system. Then we would use a freshwater flush for a couple of days or more and drain the system. In many systems I would run carbon during the flush. After all this if we could still smell the chemicals from the solvents we would flush again. Next would be to start the saltwater mix and then add some seeded live rock to get to get the filter started. After a week or so we would start with some fish and build up the bio load while watching the ammonia levels. The main biological filter was a large trickle tower with a pressurized flood cone and some air injection at the base of the tower. Of course we also ran chemical, mechanical, temperature control and U.V. and ozone injection into the skimmers as well. The success rate was quite high and the fish and inverts did very well. Each system was built for inverts, fish, and fresh or saltwater. We also had cold water and tropical fresh water on separate systems. Used the same set ups for our maintenance customers for years with great success. The start in each saltwater system was always seeded live rock then inverts and later fish (at about 3 to 6 months from invert introduction). We never really had a disease problem unless we rushed the fish introduction into a reef aquarium.

Plz provide a link on a scientific study that backs your claims

 

[ZoWhat]

I always attributed "maturity" to balance rather than diversity. Our tanks are constantly going through various cycles. The nitrogen cycle is just the one that gets the most attention. As a tank matures all of the chemical processes are going through warfare to try and balance everything out. These processes are what cause corals and anemone to be upset. Just my .02$ and maybe I'm wrong.

You get TWO Amen dances for this

 

[X-37B]

Maybe but I dont think so or most everyone would have issues on new setups.
Flushing the new system, after running a few days, is what I have alway done before adding salt.

Live rock over dead is what I have always used.
My 120 was 50/50 and coral and fish were added after 6-8 weeks with no issues.
Many new reefers rush the system before its ready, imo.
Many also do not have a good understanding of reef systems in general prior to setup.
Also many do not have a plan prior to starting, which is critical for new reefers success.
Biodiversity is ongoing in all reef tanks.
Without a plan from the start things can go south fast as proven by all the help asked for on new tank setups posted here.

 

[Jekyl]

New tanks are like new draft picks. You bring them in because they show potential in one or 2 things. However over time you're hoping for all stars.