Analyzing a Bacterial Method for Dinoflagellates (and cyano?)

[taricha]

Nice idea. I just received a bottle of Waste Away “for aquariums”. I believe that you used “for reefs”.

I assume these are done in the dark. Aluminum foil wrappped?

The water:substrate ratio in the test is about what I have in the aquarium.

The 1mL/day is high but I understand your thinking. I may run a series with diluter mixtures just to see what happens in the test.

I may supplement your test idea by letting both samples go longer. Aquarium water by itself will generate ammonia and nitrate over several weeks. In any case, I'll generate some numbers.

yes. Correct on the waste-away. And the foil is great idea. For the purposes of analyzing the method, I think we most need to know what waste away can liberate in a few short days, although you are right the longer term fate is at least as interesting.
I'll start my bottles tomorrow.

LoL true. Like I mentioned, I'll explain what we saw in the aerated digester systems.

Maybe the white paper on ATAD could bridge a few gaps faster?

Awesome!

 

[Daniel@R2R Verified Admin]

Very interesting discussion

 

[merereef]

yes. Correct on the waste-away. And the foil is great idea. For the purposes of analyzing the method, I think we most need to know what waste away can liberate in a few short days, although you are right the longer term fate is at least as interesting.
I'll start my bottles tomorrow.


Awesome!

Do you think just adding dr tims waste away and leaving skimmer off for 3 days would be enough to battle dinos? There have been a few people mentioning on threads that dinos HATE low oxygen.. so turning skimmer off and setting wavemakers to low would help. I did this once i turned the skimmer off and the next day i did notice a huge difference in dinos on the sand.. what are your thoughts?

 

[taricha]

Dinos can swim towards nutrients and light and photosynthesize so strongly they give off excess oxygen as visible bubbles.
So I don't see any sense in trying to deprive them of oxygen.
Besides, creating a bacterial bloom without aeration is begging for trouble (livestock losses).

When people you've heard say "dinos hate low oxygen" they might have meant some other condition that they associate with low oxygen. Low flow, low gas exchange, low nutrient flow, etc. Bacterial bloom caused by stagnation. Hard to say.

 

[Dan_P]

Dinos can swim towards nutrients and light and photosynthesize so strongly they give off excess oxygen as visible bubbles.
So I don't see any sense in trying to deprive them of oxygen.
Besides, creating a bacterial bloom without aeration is begging for trouble (livestock losses).

When people you've heard say "dinos hate low oxygen" they might have meant some other condition that they associate with low oxygen. Low flow, low gas exchange, low nutrient flow, etc. Bacterial bloom caused by stagnation. Hard to say.

I thought about this question while showering just now and had two thoughts. One simple, one complex.

Simple idea. Dinoflagellates require oxygen at night for respiration. If their locale, such as the substrate, is depleted of oxygen by heterotrophic bacteria, they could swim or float away. Because you cannot easily see a dispersed dinoflagellate infestation, you might be tempted to create a hypothesis about the disappearing dinoflagellate problem.

Complex idea. Dinoflagellates might need an aerobic heterotrophic bacteria partner to enable it to grow huge numbers of cells in a a small space. This partnership suffers if the aerobic organism does not do well because of low oxygen. Once again, the dinoflagellates swim or float away and you create a hypothesis.

 

[Cruz_Arias]

Please see attached, Jonathan.

 

[Cruz_Arias]

Do you think just adding dr tims waste away and leaving skimmer off for 3 days would be enough to battle dinos? There have been a few people mentioning on threads that dinos HATE low oxygen.. so turning skimmer off and setting wavemakers to low would help. I did this once i turned the skimmer off and the next day i did notice a huge difference in dinos on the sand.. what are your thoughts?

I would rather hypothesize that, dinoflagellates can photosynthesize better in higher concentrations of CO2... but retain enough oxygen to respirate at night. Where the stored ATP changes back to ADP sustaining their population.

Once again, another hypothesis.

 

[Cruz_Arias]

Here is a break down of the reactions taking place.

As you can see, keeping O2 available and CO2 at its lowest (around 400ppm) is crucial to aerobic digestion (ATAD)

 

[merereef]

Anyone have any luck using hydrogen peroxide to get rid of dino?

 

[CS Reefer]

Anyone have any luck using hydrogen peroxide to get rid of dino?

Rereef, I’ve read that hydrogen peroxide is non-selective in what it oxidizes, and I can’t say I would use it in my display without precautions/isolation from the main system

 

[merereef]

Here is a break down of the reactions taking place.

As you can see, keeping O2 available and CO2 at its lowest (around 400ppm) is crucial to aerobic digestion (ATAD)

I just realised you’re the guy that wrote this whole design right? Was just listening to you on reefdudes..always a pleasure to listen to your advice on the streams. i just realised you meant to drive OUT the co2 so that would increase the ph. So increasing ph is what we want

 

[Cruz_Arias]

I just realised you’re the guy that wrote this whole design right? Was just listening to you on reefdudes..always a pleasure to listen to your advice on the streams. i just realised you meant to drive OUT the co2 so that would increase the ph. So increasing ph is what we want

Not necessarily increasing pH... but pH increasing is a result of CO2 ppm dissolved in water approaching "normal" which is around 390~400 ppm CO2.

At an Alk of 8.4 your pH should also be around 8.4 (is the rule of thumb we go by)

It's always fun to be invited to speak with Deven, a few of the other Youtubers, and hobbyists like you.

 

[taricha]

pH increasing is a result of CO2 ppm dissolved in water approaching "normal" which is around 390~400 ppm CO2.

At an Alk of 8.4 your pH should also be around 8.4 (is the rule of thumb we go by)

Do people who do this actually see that (stable high pH) happen? Or does everyone's pH actually drop significantly during the process?

 

[Cruz_Arias]

Do people who do this actually see that (stable high pH) happen? Or does everyone's pH actually drop significantly during the process?

Day 0 allows them to calibrate their aeration and evaluate their CO2 hold up...

Most people see a pH of 8.2/8.3 @ Alk of 8.3/8.4 right before Day 1... if not, we ask them to bring in "fresh air" via a Tom' Aqualifter Pump.

For instance, if they are at an Alk of 9.0, and the pH is around 7.8 to 8.0, we know their overall CO2 hold up in their system is around 750 to 900 ppm.

At that point we recommend them not to proceed with the bacterial bloom.

 

[Cruz_Arias]

On days 2 and 3 there is a significant increase in bacterial density to create a CO2 sag in pH.

At this point knowing the baseline Alk to pH liberalization, we can extrapolate that the decrease of pH is caused by CO2 hold up, provided that Alk had not changed.

The subnote to watch pH closely on Day 3 was included to warn of a potential of what to do if CO2 reaches a point of concern, and how to knock back the bacterial population back into control.

 

[Cruz_Arias]

The lowest Alk levels that maintained a pH of 8.4 easily, was a dKH of 8.0.

It does require the correct balance of carbonates, bicarbonates, and borate salts (for stabilization of carbonates)

 

[merereef]

The lowest Alk levels that maintained a pH of 8.4 easily, was a dKH of 8.0.

It does require the correct balance of carbonates, bicarbonates, and borate salts (for stabilization of carbonates)

instead of usinga bubble stone can i leave skimmer cup off. And allow the micro bubbles to flow in to the tank and stir sand to allow dinos to be caught via bubbles and ise a uv sterliser t kill it? What you think of this method?

 

[CoralClasher]

I'm on day four is this the bacteria I'm supposed to have? Kinda hard to get good pictures with all the air bubbles but it's white slime covering the glass you can really see it when I use the glass scraper.

 

[CS Reefer]

I'm on day four is this the bacteria I'm supposed to have? Kinda hard to get good pictures with all the air bubbles but it's white slime covering the glass you can really see it when I use the glass scraper.

What’s your magnesium level?

 

[merereef]

I'm on day four is this the bacteria I'm supposed to have? Kinda hard to get good pictures with all the air bubbles but it's white slime covering the glass you can really see it when I use the glass scraper.

That does look like a massive bacterial bloom. You could try reducing the dose but its not a bad thing just unsightly