Analyzing a Bacterial Method for Dinoflagellates (and cyano?)

[scottrotton]

I have completed 7 days this did nothing for me, I continued having cyano and Dino growth. My glass stayed noticeably cleaner.
Very little haze in water, I was expected much more cloudy water.
should I run again and this time supplement nitrate and phosphate to help fuel bacteria? Or maybe a blackout then straight into this?

 

[Tjm23slo]

I have completed 7 days this did nothing for me, I continued having cyano and Dino growth. My glass stayed noticeably cleaner.
Very little haze in water, I was expected much more cloudy water.
should I run again and this time supplement nitrate and phosphate to help fuel bacteria? Or maybe a blackout then straight into this?

If the Amphidinium come back add a bunch of nutrients to the water on days one and two. Cruz mentioned crushing up 6-8 new life spectrum pellets or flake to add NO3 and PO4 to the system to fuel the bloom. FaStart-M might work too.

 

[CoralClasher]

I have completed 7 days this did nothing for me, I continued having cyano and Dino growth. My glass stayed noticeably cleaner.
Very little haze in water, I was expected much more cloudy water.
should I run again and this time supplement nitrate and phosphate to help fuel bacteria? Or maybe a blackout then straight into this?

I maybe totally wrong but don't start the second round unless you are able to keep nutrients in the tank. I'm on day 5 of round 2 and my nutrients are way to low. I believe the nutrient absorbing bacteria is out of control and the sludge eating bacteria is working to slow? I used the smell test yesterday and added hydrogen peroxide till the water didn't smell like someone got drunk on vodka then I got a fishy smell now this morning I don't have much of a smell at all. Maybe the peroxide is killing the one and only bacteria?

 

[CoralClasher]

That why I was asking for the "how to balance and maintain the tank" regiment. This method definitely helped with my Dinos but I'm afraid they will come back if I don't get a balance of bacteria soon.

 

[taricha]

I have completed 7 days this did nothing for me, I continued having cyano and Dino growth. My glass stayed noticeably cleaner.
Very little haze in water, I was expected much more cloudy water.
should I run again and this time supplement nitrate and phosphate to help fuel bacteria? Or maybe a blackout then straight into this?

Can we get details on what this system was like, that didn't produce any bacterial bloom with Waste-Away and large vodka dose? First I've heard of that. Didn't know it was possible.

 

[Victoria M]

So you guys, going back through the instructions and comparing what I did per my notes...I did not follow the instructions exactly. ;Bucktooth

I dosed the bacterias and vodka every day of the regimen but day 5. And I dosed vodka at 2.5 ml per 15 gallon instead of 5 ml per 15 gallon. I should have read the instructions again each day, instead of going off my memory. Duh.
But the good news my sand is amphidinium free. Have Not looked at the sand with a microscope though.
Today is day 6 of the regimen, and I had to siphon out the very visible grey grunge/detritus. Holy Moly the odor was that of a dead animal.

 

[Victoria M]

I will post details and day by day results later.

 

[Idoc]

Im on Day 2 and got the hazy bloom today after the 5ml per 15g Vodka dose. Im watching my pH closely, slight drop this afternoon. I'l test alkalinity again tomorrow morning.

Note about pic...I momentarily shut off my airlines to get a pic of the amount of haze and to feed the fish... they weren't eating in the micro-bubbles!

 

[taricha]

Very little haze in water, I was expected much more cloudy water.

Cruz mentioned crushing up 6-8 new life spectrum pellets or flake to add NO3 and PO4 to the system to fuel the bloom.

@Cruz_Arias I hadn't seen this come up before. Do some systems have minimal cloudy water responses, and is it thought to be from very little system waste?

 

[Cruz_Arias]

@Cruz_Arias I hadn't seen this come up before. Do some systems have minimal cloudy water responses, and is it thought to be from very little system waste?

This typically happens in liquid fed ULNS without a sandbed... I believe that the lack of a bloom could be a result of a lack of detritus/waste.
Up until a few years ago, most systems had the opposite problem; too much nutrients and waste hold up.
With the more efficient skimmers, lack of the deep sandbed, and roller mats and continuous carbon dosing (bio pellets), we have observed "super clean" systems with 0.00 "nutrient" levels and almost a demineralized saltwater.

 

[taricha]

Wanted to mention something here on one possible effect of the large ethanol dose - 5ml vodka per 15 gal - in addition to its potential role in increasing the cloudy water bloom.
In my system, I've been using vibrant to create dead GHA/Derbesia and observe the fate of this material in the system. This routinely causes cyanobacteria at the site of the dead/dying algal material.

I've been adding vibrant for 3-4 weeks, and for the last couple of weeks I've been adding a large Carbon dose - 10mL vodka + 40 mL vinegar in 70 gal - this is smaller, about 2/3 the size of the recommended dose during the treatment, but still pretty huge for a daily dose.

The result of this is that the piles of dead/dying GHA stayed cyano-free during the carbon dosing.

If you look closely you can see bacterial mat, but no cyano.

It seems as if in the presence of an abundance of accessible carbon, non-photosynthetic organisms fare better than the usual photosynthetic types.

It's possible that a N-limitation plays a role here. I have a strand of filamentous cyano that always grows on this pipe and is usually a nice emerald green. Under the large vodka dose regimen, it turned gold. within 3 days of stopping the large carbon dose, It returned to its usual green. In some of @Dan_P cyano tests and in published papers this behavior is a sign of N-starvation for cyano.

top: Oct 9, bottom: Oct 13

 

[Dan_P]

Wanted to mention something here on one possible effect of the large ethanol dose - 5ml vodka per 15 gal - in addition to its potential role in increasing the cloudy water bloom.
In my system, I've been using vibrant to create dead GHA/Derbesia and observe the fate of this material in the system. This routinely causes cyanobacteria at the site of the dead/dying algal material.

I've been adding vibrant for 3-4 weeks, and for the last couple of weeks I've been adding a large Carbon dose - 10mL vodka + 40 mL vinegar in 70 gal - this is smaller, about 2/3 the size of the recommended dose during the treatment, but still pretty huge for a daily dose.

The result of this is that the piles of dead/dying GHA stayed cyano-free during the carbon dosing.

If you look closely you can see bacterial mat, but no cyano.

It seems as if in the presence of an abundance of accessible carbon, non-photosynthetic organisms fare better than the usual photosynthetic types.

It's possible that a N-limitation plays a role here. I have a strand of filamentous cyano that always grows on this pipe and is usually a nice emerald green. Under the large vodka dose regimen, it turned gold. within 3 days of stopping the large carbon dose, It returned to its usual green. In some of @Dan_P cyano tests and in published papers this behavior is a sign of N-starvation for cyano.

top: Oct 9, bottom: Oct 13

These photos are works of art!

That white bacterial mat has an interesting structure. Have you tried cutting out a section to take a closer look at the clumps and strings (reticulation?) more closely?

With regards to nitrogen limitation, won’t dinoflagellates start to bloom now?

One future cyanobacteria study will look at the interaction of cyanobacteria and bacteria under various nitrogen and phosphorous levels. One question to answer is whether given enough nitrogen, would the bacteria still out compete cyanobacteria.

 

[taricha]

These photos are works of art!

That white bacterial mat has an interesting structure. Have you tried cutting out a section to take a closer look at the clumps and strings (reticulation?) more closely?

With regards to nitrogen limitation, won’t dinoflagellates start to bloom now?

One future cyanobacteria study will look at the interaction of cyanobacteria and bacteria under various nitrogen and phosphorous levels. One question to answer is whether given enough nitrogen, would the bacteria still out compete cyanobacteria.

Didn't check it under the scope. I expect it's the same white mobile filamentous bacteria I've seen when trying out the treatment. I'll check again next time I go back to high carbon doses.

I don't know if dinos will appear in any great number, but I'll be watching for them.

Interesting thing on N limitation. My water tests zero NO3 always - with or without carbon dosing, unless I specifically add NO3. But cyano does just fine under those conditions (because like you've been saying, the water chemistry is not where the action is, when it comes to cyano mats.)

 

[Dan_P]

Didn't check it under the scope. I expect it's the same white mobile filamentous bacteria I've seen when trying out the treatment. I'll check again next time I go back to high carbon doses.

I don't know if dinos will appear in any great number, but I'll be watching for them.

Interesting thing on N limitation. My water tests zero NO3 always - with or without carbon dosing, unless I specifically add NO3. But cyano does just fine under those conditions (because like you've been saying, the water chemistry is not where the action is, when it comes to cyano mats.)

I need to figure out a simple, hobby friendly way to measure nitrate at <0.1 ppm to get a better sense of what's happening at 0 ppm nitrate in the substrate or within the detritus piles.

 

[taricha]

Please see attached, Jonathan.

One point in here that I've been thinking about and I want to bring up...

This uptake of the polyphosphate by PAO [polyphosphate accumulating organisms] bacteria under aerobic conditions results in
the polyphosphorus to remain in the solids, resulting in substantially reduced phosphorus levels in permeate from an aerobic digestion process with membrane thickening. Sludge shows clear cycles of significant phosphorus release under no aeration and subsequent phosphorus uptake when aeration is turned back on, consistent with the commonly accepted metabolism of PAO
microorganisms

I wonder if we think this might apply in our systems? Waste digested aerobically releasing very little Phosphorus but waste that gets worked into sand bed or another low oxygen area would release P?

 

[scottrotton]

Can we get details on what this system was like, that didn't produce any bacterial bloom with Waste-Away and large vodka dose? First I've heard of that. Didn't know it was possible.

Yes its very odd, i have never used Vodka before but i used NOPOX in previous tanks and have seen blooms much worse using much less. is it possible the Dino and cyano are using the voka instead of the bacterial strain waste away wer’e trying to feed? i took microscope videos day 1 and 5 and saw little difference in regards to bacteria

 

[Cruz_Arias]

One point in here that I've been thinking about and I want to bring up...


I wonder if we think this might apply in our systems? Waste digested aerobically releasing very little Phosphorus but waste that gets worked into sand bed or another low oxygen area would release P?

It's a theory/ hypothesis... for instance, amphidium and cyano tend to sheet over undisturbed sandbeds, it is assumed that some type of hypoxic digestion is taking place, in the sandbed that is releasing previously trapped "nutrients" back into the environment.

However, we have also observed bare-bottom tanks develop cyano mats on the glass floor of the tank.

Thoughts?

 

[Dan_P]

One point in here that I've been thinking about and I want to bring up...


I wonder if we think this might apply in our systems? Waste digested aerobically releasing very little Phosphorus but waste that gets worked into sand bed or another low oxygen area would release P?

What assumptions are being made here do you think? That a stagnant substrate resembles a continuous flow stirred reactor enough to draw analogies on what is happening? That mixing is not an important determinant of what grows and how fast? That accumulation of byproducts and waste in a stagnant substrate bed does not influence microbial metabolism? Is my skepticism?

To really advance our understanding here we need more aquarium data, not more sewage treatment experiment results. We need water chemistry on substrate pore water, before and after a bacterial clean, bound phosphate before and after, ammonia and alkalinity before and after.

Great thread, keep going!

 

[Cruz_Arias]

What assumptions are being made here do you think? That a stagnant substrate resembles a continuous flow stirred reactor enough to draw analogies on what is happening? That mixing is not an important determinant of what grows and how fast? That accumulation of byproducts and waste in a stagnant substrate bed does not influence microbial metabolism? Is my skepticism?

To really advance our understanding here we need more aquarium data, not more sewage treatment experiment results. We need water chemistry on substrate pore water, before and after a bacterial clean, bound phosphate before and after, ammonia and alkalinity before and after.

Great thread, keep going!

The reason why sewage treatment keeps coming back up is because many of the bacterial strains in the hobby were "borrowed" from waste water treatment facilities.

An aquarium is in essence a closed loop Waste water system.

 

[taricha]

for instance, amphidium and cyano tend to sheet over undisturbed sandbeds, it is assumed that some type of hypoxic digestion is taking place, in the sandbed that is releasing previously trapped "nutrients" back into the environment.

However, we have also observed bare-bottom tanks develop cyano mats on the glass floor of the tank.

Thoughts?

To really advance our understanding here we need more aquarium data, not more sewage treatment experiment results. We need water chemistry on substrate pore water, before and after a bacterial clean, bound phosphate before and after, ammonia and alkalinity before and after.

Dan's advice is good here. I'm going to push the deep sandbed mechanics to the side for a bit, for the following reasons.
1. Like Cruz notes, barebottom tanks grow cyano just fine. In test beakers too, no issues growing the stuff. In some of my beakers there was no difference between cyano grown on sand substrate with food particulates vs grown on bare glass with particulates. As long as the food was the right amount.
2. Although cyano and dino mats "blanket" the sand, there's no reason to think they cut off oxygen to the immediate vicinity below. The mats appear always oxygenic, and I don't know how they'd create anoxic conditions in the debris piles since the cyano entwines the debris and creates oxygen all around. Also placing a beaker over the mat, enforcing stagnation really disrupts the cyano mat.
3. Dino and cyano mats do capture and collect debris, building a sometimes deep debris pile. It's possible that at the bottom of the debris pile some material is exposed to anaerobic digestion conditions, that may in turn release nutrients that benefit the organisms in the mat. Though that may be a nice bonus, it's obviously not necessary to start or firmly establish a nuisance outbreak on the sand - see point 1.

It may be possible that there are systems where nutrient conditions that cyano require don't exist in the water, and don't exist in the top layer of the sand/debris, but do exist in the deeper porewater. That would be interesting, but it certainly seems that it's not necessary to set up that fancy layer cake to get cyano/dinos to grow.