Analyzing a Bacterial Method for Dinoflagellates (and cyano?)

[Dan_P]

The reason why sewage treatment keeps coming back up is because many of the bacterial strains in the hobby were "borrowed" from waste water treatment facilities.

An aquarium is in essence a closed loop Waste water system.

We are on the same page here. I regard the aquarium a waste management hobby

My point is that we need to use analogy with care, maybe more than we have to this point. The complex mixing characteristics of an aquarium make it a very difficult system to understand and study. And we are not typically equipped to see or measure what is happening at the biofilm level of aquarium surfaces which may contain the lion’s share of bacteria metabolism. We must infer from measurements of just a few chemical species in the water or the barely visible microorganism films on a surface what is happening at the sub-millimeter scale.

 

[Dan_P]

Dan's advice is good here. I'm going to push the deep sandbed mechanics to the side for a bit, for the following reasons.
1. Like Cruz notes, barebottom tanks grow cyano just fine. In test beakers too, no issues growing the stuff. In some of my beakers there was no difference between cyano grown on sand substrate with food particulates vs grown on bare glass with particulates. As long as the food was the right amount.
2. Although cyano and dino mats "blanket" the sand, there's no reason to think they cut off oxygen to the immediate vicinity below. The mats appear always oxygenic, and I don't know how they'd create anoxic conditions in the debris piles since the cyano entwines the debris and creates oxygen all around. Also placing a beaker over the mat, enforcing stagnation really disrupts the cyano mat.
3. Dino and cyano mats do capture and collect debris, building a sometimes deep debris pile. It's possible that at the bottom of the debris pile some material is exposed to anaerobic digestion conditions, that may in turn release nutrients that benefit the organisms in the mat. Though that may be a nice bonus, it's obviously not necessary to start or firmly establish a nuisance outbreak on the sand - see point 1.

It may be possible that there are systems where nutrient conditions that cyano require don't exist in the water, and don't exist in the top layer of the sand/debris, but do exist in the deeper porewater. That would be interesting, but it certainly seems that it's not necessary to set up that fancy layer cake to get cyano/dinos to grow.

Excellent recap.

In regard to the observation that nuisance organisms can grow on bare bottoms, I am about to set up a series of containers (bare bottom) with decreasing nutrient levels to see if there is a point at which visible cyanobacteria growth does not occur. At this point I am not adding any form of organic matter to the medium. This experiment tests the idea that relatively small tweaks to nitrate and phosphate levels can control growth. I am interested in repeating this for dinoflagellates but need to learn to grow these.

 

[scottrotton]

FYI I managed to get a bacteria bloom this time around by dosing 0.01 phosphates and 4ppm nitrate on day 3. Vodka dosage is the same as last round, PH has dropped to 7.9 and water is very cloudy. Will have a look under the microscope in the morning. Hopefully this bloom is enough to outcompete the cyano

 

[scottrotton]

Came home from work to find my cleaner shrimp dead. Ph is at 8.01. Fish seem to be ok no major signs of stress

 

[Idoc]

Came home from work to find my cleaner shrimp dead. Ph is at 8.01. Fish seem to be ok no major signs of stress

Did you shut off the aeration for the pic? There should be tons of micro bubbles in there shooting around.

 

[Victoria M]

Just a quick top down couple of photos to share my progress. And a FTS. DAY 10. Treatment done.

 

[Victoria M]

The Elegant Corals dino and cyano treatment plan


I did not follow it exactly by mistake but I got good results so far any way. I thought I would share what I did and how my tank responded.


188 gallon display tank
75 gallon sump
I calculate my tank water to be around 240 with rock displacement.
I ran the fresh air line continuously
I left my ATO with Kalk on line too

DAY 1
Ran a fresh airline hose via a aqualifter pump from a window directly to the tank, zip tied the wood airstone to my magnavore magnet so I could place the airstone low in the tank.
pH 8.2

DAY 2
Siphoned all visible amphidinium covered sand from the display tank,
15 gallon water change,
dosed Stability 40 ml
Dr. Tims Waste Away 40 ml
Vodka 40 ml
Fresh air running
Skimmer off
No GAC or GFO
UV filter off
Fine filter sock in place
Lights off

DAY3
Blew off my rocks and disturbed the sand bed
dosed Stability 40 ml
Dr. Tims Waste Away 40 ml
Vodka 40 ml
30 ml Vibrant
Skimmer off
No GAC or GFO
UV filter off
Fine filter sock in place
Lights off
Water got cloudy


DAY 4
dosed Stability 40 ml
Dr. Tims Waste Away 40 ml
Vodka 40 ml
Skimmer on, drain tube added to accommodate possible crazy foaming
No GAC or GFO
UV filter off
Fine filter sock removed, it was dark red/brown and foul smelling
Course filter material placed in sump
Lights on reduced schedule
Sand bed had no visible red amphidinium on the sand
Small patches of red cyano not visible
Water was a little cloudy
Skimmer did not go crazy, just a pretty wet foam


DAY5
Skimmer on, not too crazy
NO GAC or GFO
UV off
Lights on reduced schedule
40 ml of vodka
40 ml Vibrant added
Coarse filter material
Dosed hydrogen peroxide in the skimmer
Moved my power heads all around to blow out low flow areas and stir up the sand bed
Water was not really cloudy
Sand bed clear, but grey sludge detritus building up in low flow areas
pH 8.0

DAY 6
Skimmer on, not too crazy
NO GAC or GFO
UV off
Lights on reduced schedule
40 ml of vodka
40 ml Vibrant added
Coarse filter material
Dosed hydrogen peroxide in the skimmer
Moved power heads back to their spots
Water was not really cloudy
Left off the main pump and power heads for awhile to let the dust settle
Siphoned all the visible grey detritus, the smell was horrendous!
Sand looks great
Some green cyano on the rocks (I presume)
GHA looks wimpy and has not visibly grown

DAY 7
Nothing done to the tank
Sand looks clean
Water is clear
Rocks have a green tinge to them when all the lights are off but the kitchen lights are on. This is a little concerning as before they looked purple and grey. Time will tell.

DAY 8
Nothing done to the tank
Sand looks great
Water looks clear
The rocks definitely have green tint to them.
Few Small patches of green cyano on the rocks

 

[Cruz_Arias]

The Elegant Corals dino and cyano treatment plan


I did not follow it exactly by mistake but I got good results so far any way. I thought I would share what I did and how my tank responded.


188 gallon display tank
75 gallon sump
I calculate my tank water to be around 240 with rock displacement.
I ran the fresh air line continuously
I left my ATO with Kalk on line too

DAY 1
Ran a fresh airline hose via a aqualifter pump from a window directly to the tank, zip tied the wood airstone to my magnavore magnet so I could place the airstone low in the tank.
pH 8.2

DAY 2
Siphoned all visible amphidinium covered sand from the display tank,
15 gallon water change,
dosed Stability 40 ml
Dr. Tims Waste Away 40 ml
Vodka 40 ml
Fresh air running
Skimmer off
No GAC or GFO
UV filter off
Fine filter sock in place
Lights off

DAY3
Blew off my rocks and disturbed the sand bed
dosed Stability 40 ml
Dr. Tims Waste Away 40 ml
Vodka 40 ml
30 ml Vibrant
Skimmer off
No GAC or GFO
UV filter off
Fine filter sock in place
Lights off
Water got cloudy


DAY 4
dosed Stability 40 ml
Dr. Tims Waste Away 40 ml
Vodka 40 ml
Skimmer on, drain tube added to accommodate possible crazy foaming
No GAC or GFO
UV filter off
Fine filter sock removed, it was dark red/brown and foul smelling
Course filter material placed in sump
Lights on reduced schedule
Sand bed had no visible red amphidinium on the sand
Small patches of red cyano not visible
Water was a little cloudy
Skimmer did not go crazy, just a pretty wet foam


DAY5
Skimmer on, not too crazy
NO GAC or GFO
UV off
Lights on reduced schedule
40 ml of vodka
40 ml Vibrant added
Coarse filter material
Dosed hydrogen peroxide in the skimmer
Moved my power heads all around to blow out low flow areas and stir up the sand bed
Water was not really cloudy
Sand bed clear, but grey sludge detritus building up in low flow areas
pH 8.0

DAY 6
Skimmer on, not too crazy
NO GAC or GFO
UV off
Lights on reduced schedule
40 ml of vodka
40 ml Vibrant added
Coarse filter material
Dosed hydrogen peroxide in the skimmer
Moved power heads back to their spots
Water was not really cloudy
Left off the main pump and power heads for awhile to let the dust settle
Siphoned all the visible grey detritus, the smell was horrendous!
Sand looks great
Some green cyano on the rocks (I presume)
GHA looks wimpy and has not visibly grown

DAY 7
Nothing done to the tank
Sand looks clean
Water is clear
Rocks have a green tinge to them when all the lights are off but the kitchen lights are on. This is a little concerning as before they looked purple and grey. Time will tell.

DAY 8
Nothing done to the tank
Sand looks great
Water looks clear
The rocks definitely have green tint to them.
Few Small patches of green cyano on the rocks

Continue fresh-air, fine bubble aeration from "lights off" to "lights on", would be my maintenance suggestion as well as adding in some additional biodiversity, such as LRE and NuAlgi at this point.
To initiate a controlled diatom bloom, Miracle Mud (which is known to be rich in natural silicates) plus NuAlgi (diatom seed culture) will help occupy and establish a "healthy" diatom population.

 

[CoralClasher]

I’m a few days after round 2 and I thought Dino’s were blooming again but only could find a few Dino and lots of diatoms. Should I do round 3?

 

[Victoria M]

Went through a couple areas to look for dinos. I found what appear to be dead dinos, and I found 1 moving dino. I hope they are not encysted. Time will tell. I also found this guy so thought I would post a picture of him too. Never seen a pod with eyes like that.

The image is not perfect but it is the best one I could get of a grain of sand. In previous images the grains were crawling with dinos.

 

[Cruz_Arias]

I’m a few days after round 2 and I thought Dino’s were blooming again but only could find a few Dino and lots of diatoms. Should I do round 3?

Definitely a vast improvement...

 

[CoralClasher]

Definitely a vast improvement...

Yes bacteria rules the world!!!

 

[CoralClasher]

What do you think about running Dr. Tim’s coral color up after this regiment? It says it brings the nutrients back to the tank?

 

[Cruz_Arias]

What do you think about running Dr. Tim’s coral color up after this regiment? It says it brings the nutrients back to the tank?

I would make sure you seed with competitors at this point before dosing additional nutrients... the LRE and NuAlgi with continued bacterial inoculation at this time, IMO is more beneficial than raising nutrients right away...

I responded similarly to what I would consider to be a post regimen reseeding of microfauna to Victoria's post, above.

 

[CoralClasher]

I would make sure you seed with competitors at this point before dosing additional nutrients... the LRE and NuAlgi with continued bacterial inoculation at this time, IMO is more beneficial than raising nutrients right away...

I responded similarly to what I would consider to be a post regimen reseeding of microfauna to Victoria's post, above.

It’s not adding nutrients it’s bacteria and first defense mixed and grow for a day and feed the corals a probiotic bacteria.

 

[Cruz_Arias]

It’s not adding nutrients it’s bacteria and first defense mixed and grow for a day and feed the corals a probiotic bacteria.

Hmmm... never used that particular product before, so I honestly cannot recommend or give it a proper review...

 

[CoralClasher]

I think its kinda new plan? I used it and phosphate went up the next day without adding any

 

[CoralClasher]

Maybe you can work your magic and improve it.

 

[Cruz_Arias]

Not sure if probiotics add any color...
Zooxanthella, a type of symbiotic dinoflagellate, however, does...

 

[scottrotton]

Did you shut off the aeration for the pic? There should be tons of micro bubbles in there shooting around.

No it’s still on. there are bubbles in the system but very small almost can’t see with naked eye when using Wooden air stone. If I use my ceramic one you can see them much better but guide says to use wooden