After reading through a few threads similar to this one, I'm curious to see how many reefers here use prophylactic treatment when bringing in a new nem. To me, this question is geared towards an anemone only tank, but if you keep a mixed reef your input is helpful as well!
Anemone QT
- Thread starter Aaron-A2
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HotRocks
Fish Fanatic!
JUST FYI, Nems will not tolerate medications.
Parasitic tomonts will not encyst upon an anemone. Therefore all you have to worry about is them transferring free swimmers. So a QT that is fishless, (and doesn't contain anything else that may be releasing free swimmers) for 16 days will allow any free swimmers to die off and then be placed in your DT.
Parasitic tomonts will not encyst upon an anemone. Therefore all you have to worry about is them transferring free swimmers. So a QT that is fishless, (and doesn't contain anything else that may be releasing free swimmers) for 16 days will allow any free swimmers to die off and then be placed in your DT.
Rispa
Valuable Member
You used the right word. I am not currently doing it, but if I get a high end nem I will be testing anything I already have for a month in cipro. It's a lot of work, but if I can get everything to get along it will be worth it.
HotRocks
Fish Fanatic!
Right word, when I hear medication for the eradication of parasites in fish I think CP/Copper etc.
Amoo
Professional Thread Derailer
No. Absolutely not. Definitely No.
Cipro and SMZ&TP work to remove bacterial infections. Treating nems that have no issues serves to do nothing but possibly increase resistance to the ONLY medications we have that has been shown to work. If you get a Nem and it's in good shape, then yeah treat it, but these meds aren't like copper or something where we can see a beneficial effect by just treating everything that comes in the door because it's going to knock out a wide range of things. These meds have and should have a specific use and that should never be on a brand new anemone as preventative maintenance.
Cipro and SMZ&TP work to remove bacterial infections. Treating nems that have no issues serves to do nothing but possibly increase resistance to the ONLY medications we have that has been shown to work. If you get a Nem and it's in good shape, then yeah treat it, but these meds aren't like copper or something where we can see a beneficial effect by just treating everything that comes in the door because it's going to knock out a wide range of things. These meds have and should have a specific use and that should never be on a brand new anemone as preventative maintenance.
Rispa
Valuable Member
Mixing wild caught anemones with some of the high end breeds is known to commonly cause death in a high end nem. Treating regularly and at the wrong dosage causes resistance. This is me treating to prevent illness rather than waiting until it starts to kill a $1k nem
Amoo
Professional Thread Derailer
I'm not trying to be a jerk here, but there is so much "nope" in this post it's really hardly believable. Mixing Nems is much more a threat to chemical warfare then anything to do with what these meds are designed to treat, which is bacterial infections.
You're basically giving chemo to a patient that doesn't have cancer simply because they smoke.
Now if you have some documentation somewhere as to the validity to what you're saying I'm more than willing to be educated here, but some of the things you're suggesting are things I have literally never seen anywhere. I don't pretend to know it all, but I have done a heck of a lot of reading and research and studying of nems, the idea that mixing nems captive bred or wild caught will cause problems that these meds will fix literally does not make sense. Can you imagine just how many times in the process from the ocean to your house the water inside that nem has been turned over?
Agree w/ Amoo 100%
Best for any newly shipped nem is QT and observe, and only treat w/ cipro if you see bacterial infection signs which would be deflation of tentacles.(Not just closing at lights out)
Best for any newly shipped nem is QT and observe, and only treat w/ cipro if you see bacterial infection signs which would be deflation of tentacles.(Not just closing at lights out)
Cipro has been used for years now, this has helped us have great success in keeping many anemone's that were once considered impossible or nearly impossible to keep
HotRocks
Fish Fanatic!
I was talking about copper or cp type meds. (Meds used in prophylactic treatment for fish).
I would never recommend treating anything with antibiotics for prophylactic reasons.
Rispa
Valuable Member
If part of it isn't bacterial then why would antibiotics help save an anemone that was dealing with chemical warfare? Why not carbon dose the tank? If antibiotics help then something bacterial must be going on.
Rispa
Valuable Member
Okay, I'm going to read to read up on this more later. In the meantime I want to post my ideas while I'm thinking about it.
First if the problem is not chemical, then the wild nem is probably bringing bacteria in that hurts stressed or hurt nems. Cipro kills the bacteria and allows the sick nem to heal without interference. This could possibly be bacteria that evolved in the wild and the captive breeds didn't evolve better immunity. Additionally an anemone that's been shipped is going to be stressed and more susceptible to disease.
If it's chemical something in the cipro is helping with the chemicals. This could be that it is breaking down the chemicals or binding to them. It could be that it calms the nem down. It could be that it makes it so cells that produce it receive those chemicals act differently.
If anyone has articles on this is like to read them. Especially any info on how to test for the chemicals in the water.
First if the problem is not chemical, then the wild nem is probably bringing bacteria in that hurts stressed or hurt nems. Cipro kills the bacteria and allows the sick nem to heal without interference. This could possibly be bacteria that evolved in the wild and the captive breeds didn't evolve better immunity. Additionally an anemone that's been shipped is going to be stressed and more susceptible to disease.
If it's chemical something in the cipro is helping with the chemicals. This could be that it is breaking down the chemicals or binding to them. It could be that it calms the nem down. It could be that it makes it so cells that produce it receive those chemicals act differently.
If anyone has articles on this is like to read them. Especially any info on how to test for the chemicals in the water.
Amoo
Professional Thread Derailer
You're missing a few key points. I think I understand what you are trying to say, but your theory is just simply off.
First of all, when you get a wild caught nem from anywhere, it is not arriving to you with the same water in the bag that was in the ocean at the time the nem was caught. It gets typically gets repackaged at least 3 times that I know of, not counting however the dealer who is selling it handles it. Nems are mostly comprised of water from their surroundings. The chance that any of the water is left over once the Nem arrives to you are infinitesimal.
Secondly, when you mix nem species chemical warfare is a thing. In fact if you have a nem in your tank at all it is a really really good idea to also run carbon as many of us who keep them will simply not have a tank with a nem and not do so. Partly for this very reason.
Thirdly, some nems are simply not compatible with each other because of this chemical warfare just like some corals.
Lastly nobody is saying not to QT nems. QTing nems should be the norm. What we are saying is proactively treating a nem with the only two meds we have which have actually shown promise to help us when there is a problem is both irresponsible as a hobbyist and unnecessary. There's simply too great a risk of developing resistances.
First of all, when you get a wild caught nem from anywhere, it is not arriving to you with the same water in the bag that was in the ocean at the time the nem was caught. It gets typically gets repackaged at least 3 times that I know of, not counting however the dealer who is selling it handles it. Nems are mostly comprised of water from their surroundings. The chance that any of the water is left over once the Nem arrives to you are infinitesimal.
Secondly, when you mix nem species chemical warfare is a thing. In fact if you have a nem in your tank at all it is a really really good idea to also run carbon as many of us who keep them will simply not have a tank with a nem and not do so. Partly for this very reason.
Thirdly, some nems are simply not compatible with each other because of this chemical warfare just like some corals.
Lastly nobody is saying not to QT nems. QTing nems should be the norm. What we are saying is proactively treating a nem with the only two meds we have which have actually shown promise to help us when there is a problem is both irresponsible as a hobbyist and unnecessary. There's simply too great a risk of developing resistances.
Amoo
Professional Thread Derailer
Here's a thread I did when I received my last Nem to show the process I go through with receiving and acclimating a new Nem.
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/introduction-of-a-new-nem-follow-along.324332/
Rispa
Valuable Member
If changing water to flush things out was enough, then the infections wouldn't be a problem. Therefore at least some can be carried on their flesh. The idea behind the antibiotics to kill off the bacteria is to create a clean system with none of the bacteria that's causing the infection.
Furthermore these wild nems could have developed an immunity that means if you quarantine they went show any signs, but adding them to the tank could still hurt your others.
I even have an example of this. The patagonion conure is a carrier of herpes (pretty sure that was the disease), but it's hard to test for. Even if they don't have it they are asymptomatic, but can still pass it on. Just watching doesn't always work.
Is the problem primarily chemical warfare or bacterial when it comes to mixing bubble tips? I haven't found enough evidence to answer this and I think it's an important question. Theoretically if it's chemical and they aren't close to each other enough carbon should take care of the problem.
What you are suggesting is instead of preventing disease, to treat it when it comes to. At that point you are risking your anemone and hoping it can recover. Instead why not preemptively treat? Oh yes you're worried about bacteria developing immunity. Well the same amount of risk exists if you treat after they are sick. Possibly more so because there is more bacteria and this a greater chance of that one needed mush mutation existing. Instead why not just throw the sick anemone away? You may as well if you're that worried.
As for only two antibiotics working. I'm sure there are more. Those two are just the ones that have been confirmed to work.
Furthermore these wild nems could have developed an immunity that means if you quarantine they went show any signs, but adding them to the tank could still hurt your others.
I even have an example of this. The patagonion conure is a carrier of herpes (pretty sure that was the disease), but it's hard to test for. Even if they don't have it they are asymptomatic, but can still pass it on. Just watching doesn't always work.
Is the problem primarily chemical warfare or bacterial when it comes to mixing bubble tips? I haven't found enough evidence to answer this and I think it's an important question. Theoretically if it's chemical and they aren't close to each other enough carbon should take care of the problem.
What you are suggesting is instead of preventing disease, to treat it when it comes to. At that point you are risking your anemone and hoping it can recover. Instead why not preemptively treat? Oh yes you're worried about bacteria developing immunity. Well the same amount of risk exists if you treat after they are sick. Possibly more so because there is more bacteria and this a greater chance of that one needed mush mutation existing. Instead why not just throw the sick anemone away? You may as well if you're that worried.
As for only two antibiotics working. I'm sure there are more. Those two are just the ones that have been confirmed to work.
