Angel and Tang reintroduction schedule

[FarmerTy]

Curious what everybody thinks for reintroduction into my tank. I went 76 days fallow and now my 215-gallon (72" x 24" x 29") tank is ready for the fish to return. I have been ghost-feeding my tank in anticipation of the day and plan on reintroducing the fish in batches to slowly allow my system to adjust to the bioload.

I am mostly curious on thoughts about my reintroduction of my tangs and angels. Here's what I have:

Angels:
-majestic angel (3") *
-potters angel (3") *
-flame angel (4")
-emperor angel (7")

Tangs:
-orange shoulder tang (6")
-achilles tang (5") *
-powder blue tang (3") *
-purple tang (3")
-yellow belly hippo tang (5") *
-blonde naso tang (3")

The asterisk (*) denotes that they are new additions to the livestock and were not part of the original fish stock prior to the 76 days fallow.

So I'm thinking of adding my angels first. Currently the emperor, majestic, and flame coexist but the flame was picking on the majestic so I isolated the flame angel. I was thinking of releasing the angels in this order and allowing each to get used to the new surroundings for a couple of days before the next one went in:
1) majestic
2) potters
3) flame
4) emperor

If all goes well, I then plan on adding the tangs in a few weeks after that. For the tangs, I was thinking just to drop them all at the same time. Currently, all the tangs minus the powder blue and achilles are living together in harmony. Yes, I know I may be starting WW3 with the achilles and powder blue but I'm hoping the smaller powder blue will help, even though I know they have no fear of size. I figure just drop them plus the achilles and powder blue all at the same time in the "new" tank and let them all settle territories at once instead of any having an established territory for others to move in on.

Any input/feedback is appreciated!

 

[eatbreakfast]

I would say do the angels simultaneously, then the hippo and naso, then the rest of the rangs.

 

[sc50964]

You have three tangs that are in the same genus, and two other tangs that are in other genus. The only lone one is the naso. All these in a 215 gallons is very likely gonna have some major issue with ich. On top of that, the four Angels are in two genus as well. The size diff in the large Angels may be enough for them to ignore each other for a bit, but I suspect that won't last too long since they are in the same genus and there are no other large Angels to distract them. My suggestion is to rehome some fish to decrease the possibility of a major ich outbreak. Sorry this must not be what you want to hear, but I think the last thing you want is to go another 76 days fallow.

 

[eatbreakfast]

You have three tangs that are in the same genus, and two other tangs that are in other genus. The only lone one is the naso. All these in a 215 gallons is very likely gonna have some major issue with ich. On top of that, the four Angels are in two genus as well. The size diff in the large Angels may be enough for them to ignore each other for a bit, but I suspect that won't last too long since they are in the same genus and there are no other large Angels to distract them. My suggestion is to rehome some fish to decrease the possibility of a major ich outbreak. Sorry this must not be what you want to hear, but I think the last thing you want is to go another 76 days fallow.

With the tank being fallow and the fish going through qt, I wouldn't be overly worried about ich.

Hippo tangs are in a different genus as well.

Overstocking with aggressive fishes is a tried and true method for spreading out aggression. Check out 4fordfamily's threads on Combating Aggression with Tangs, as well as some of his own threads.

 

[sc50964]

Was 4fordfamily used to be called 3fordfamily? If they are the same then I remember his tanks from my days at RC. I could be wrong but i don't think he ever had just two large Angels in a tank. I also don't think he had six tangs in the same tank as well. I did make a mistake as I thought the op had a yellow tang but it's actually a yellow BH. That being the case has definitely reduced the possibility of ich outbreak. IME, I once had 8 large Angels, 8 designer clown fish, 2 tangs, and several other wrasses in an 180g and they lived peacefully for more than 2 years until ich and marine velvet wiped out the tank. I let the tank go fallow for months before putting in qt'ed fish (large Angels and tangs again), and ich came back again. My conclusion is that management of stress is the best way to mitigate risk of getting ich or worse, and all that starts from fish selection, which means I would only put in fish that I definitely want and leave out the ones that are nice to have.

 

[eatbreakfast]

Was 4fordfamily used to be called 3fordfamily? If they are the same then I remember his tanks from my days at RC. I could be wrong but i don't think he ever had just two large Angels in a tank. I also don't think he had six tangs in the same tank as well. I did make a mistake as I thought the op had a yellow tang but it's actually a yellow BH. That being the case has definitely reduced the possibility of ich outbreak. IME, I once had 8 large Angels, 8 designer clown fish, 2 tangs, and several other wrasses in an 180g and they lived peacefully for more than 2 years until ich and marine velvet wiped out the tank. I let the tank go fallow for months before putting in qt'ed fish (large Angels and tangs again), and ich came back again. My conclusion is that management of stress is the best way to mitigate risk of getting ich or worse, and all that starts from fish selection, which means I would only put in fish that I definitely want and leave out the ones that are nice to have.

Yes, 4fordfamily used to be 3fordfamily.

Actually, the best method of limiting ich isn't resolving stress, it is preventing it's introduction to the tank.

Experience with 8 large angels helps, but IME(if we are playing that game) I have taken care of dozens of large angels and tangs, some singly, some a couple in a tank, some quite a few in a tank. While true that they will show aggression toward one another, sometimes quite fiercely, if acquired while small(this is the case of the op) and added simultaneously (will also be the case for the op) coexistence goes much more smoothly.

Also having a few deep bodied fish in the tank, the combination of tangs and angels, if kept in enough numbers, will result in a tank boss that shows it's dominance to all, but not relentlessly bulling anyone. Kweping any fish that may try to be bullies from really picking on any other fish lest the tank boss gets angry.

I can't speak for his exact stock, but @4FordFamily has documented, I believe more than six tangs.

 

[sc50964]

I wasn't playing any game, and was simply sharing my experience and the sole purpose was to help the op. A 7" Emp isn't small and its behavior in a new environment will most likely be different than when he was juvenile. This isn't the forum to argue about differences of opinions unless if the opinion is just completely wrong. If the op must keep all fish, my suggestion is to put all of them in but use an egg crate or two to divide up the tank into two or more portions initially. The large Angels are kept apart and the same applies to the dwarf Angels. As to the tangs, that's more tricky but I would keep the orange shoulder and the PBT together, away from the Achilles.

 

[eatbreakfast]

Considering that emperors get over 2x's that size, 7" is still small. My experiences is that they can all be kept together and adding closely related fish simultaneously prevents any one fish from claiming the whole tank as it's sole territory. They will setup a pecking order and work it out within a day or two. No need to use dividers.

 

[FarmerTy]

Thank you guys for the spirited debate. I actually really appreciate it!

I want to squash the ich and velvet issue out the gate. The reason I went fallow and run TTM on all old and new additions is to have an achilles and a powder blue, knowing now that ich maintenance wouldn't cut it with either fish.

So it simply comes down to who's gonna fight with who. I know conspecifics will typically go after each other and I am aware of large angels going after each other as well. I also know that introducing them with an obvious size difference when younger can help them be more accepting of the other fish initially and hopefully for the long-term as well.

Keep in mind that the majestic and emperor are swimming side by side in the tub currently and so was the flame for a bit until he decided he wasn't going to have the majestic. This is largely due to him inhabiting the tub first so I feel like adding the majestic to the tank first will allow it to feel comfortable first before adding the flame. Hopefully once introduced to the tank, it won't consider the tank its territory like it did the tub and coexist with the majestic.

The achilles is going to be substaintially bigger than the PBT so I don't anticipate a fight there and my last PBT coexisted just fine with my orange shoulder tang. He just sadly succumbed to ich being in an ich-maintenance tank. That's why I went through the trouble of going fallow to remove ich from the equation. I didn't believe 4-ford family that it couldn't be done but now I'm a believer. Ich maintenance means no PBT success long-term... at least in my application. I'm sure there are anomalies out there.

 

[eatbreakfast]

Thank you guys for the spirited debate. I actually really appreciate it!

I want to squash the ich and velvet issue out the gate. The reason I went fallow and run TTM on all old and new additions is to have an achilles and a powder blue, knowing now that ich maintenance wouldn't cut it with either fish.

So it simply comes down to who's gonna fight with who. I know conspecifics will typically go after each other and I am aware of large angels going after each other as well. I also know that introducing them with an obvious size difference when younger can help them be more accepting of the other fish initially and hopefully for the long-term as well.

Keep in mind that the majestic and emperor are swimming side by side in the tub currently and so was the flame for a bit until he decided he wasn't going to have the majestic. This is largely due to him inhabiting the tub first so I feel like adding the majestic to the tank first will allow it to feel comfortable first before adding the flame. Hopefully once introduced to the tank, it won't consider the tank its territory like it did the tub and coexist with the majestic.

The achilles is going to be substaintially bigger than the PBT so I don't anticipate a fight there and my last PBT coexisted just fine with my orange shoulder tang. He just sadly succumbed to ich being in an ich-maintenance tank. That's why I went through the trouble of going fallow to remove ich from the equation. I didn't believe 4-ford family that it couldn't be done but now I'm a believer. Ich maintenance means no PBT success long-term... at least in my application. I'm sure there are anomalies out there.

The behavior you describe from the flame in the tub is exactly why i would add all similar fish simultaneously. Which ever angel gets added first will behave dominantly toward those added after it.

 

[FarmerTy]

Here are my babies in the tub as we speak.

 

[FarmerTy]

The behavior you describe from the flame in the tub is exactly why i would add all similar fish simultaneously. Which ever angel gets added first will behave dominantly toward those added after it.

That makes complete sense. My initial line of reasoning was it seemed the flame was much the aggressor so I wanted the more docile angel in the tank first, as he is smaller and also majestics are known for being peaceful.

 

[sc50964]

The fact that the Emp and the majestic are getting along in the tub is definitely good news. With that said, doing TTM and having the tank fallow are good practices but they won't guaranteed your tank from never getting ich or MV. Fish being stressed due to aggression can cause that. In any case m, it seems that you already have your mind set and not going to take any more precautionary measures. I love big FOWRL tanks and I hope you the best of luck.

 

[FarmerTy]

Agreed, nothing is 100%, there is the possiblity of ich getting through my QT process for sure, that of which I do not doubt.

I think the portion I think is incorrect is the stress part. If you had an ich free system, stress will not create ich. It's just pure biology there. Stress cannot produce tomont cysts, stress cannot produce theronts and trophonts either. They have to be in the system and the stress makes the fish susceptible to infection. No interpretations, just simple fact. If ich was in the system, then yes, it can manifest itself during stressful situations like a bunch of large angels attacking each other.

I don't mean to call out, I'm just wanting to be clear about facts for those reading this as well. I am very appreciative of your input into the discussion as you have had plenty of experience with angels! Please understand your input has definitely increased my knowledge of the subject and may change my potential reintroduction schedule.

 

[sc50964]

No offense taken. IME, having the tank fallow doesn't necessary get rid of all ich, and that's the basis of my input.

 

[FarmerTy]

No offense taken. IME, having the tank fallow doesn't necessary get rid of all ich, and that's the basis of my input.

That makes complete sense! [emoji106]

 

[4FordFamily]

Was 4fordfamily used to be called 3fordfamily? If they are the same then I remember his tanks from my days at RC. I could be wrong but i don't think he ever had just two large Angels in a tank. I also don't think he had six tangs in the same tank as well. I did make a mistake as I thought the op had a yellow tang but it's actually a yellow BH. That being the case has definitely reduced the possibility of ich outbreak. IME, I once had 8 large Angels, 8 designer clown fish, 2 tangs, and several other wrasses in an 180g and they lived peacefully for more than 2 years until ich and marine velvet wiped out the tank. I let the tank go fallow for months before putting in qt'ed fish (large Angels and tangs again), and ich came back again. My conclusion is that management of stress is the best way to mitigate risk of getting ich or worse, and all that starts from fish selection, which means I would only put in fish that I definitely want and leave out the ones that are nice to have.

RC days I did have multiple angels in one of my tanks. I have large Angels together now without issue. My tang tank has 8 tangs (just lost a yellow tang somehow), a flame angel, a male blue star leopard wrasse and a couple gobies and blenny.

I will say my luck ran dry much after I left RC and velvet plagued my tanks and i too have struggled to keep ich and velvet out but I honestly think cupramine is the issue, I've switched to copper power so far it seems more effective although seems to lead to HLLE where cupramine seemed to do this less.

 

[FarmerTy]

RC days I did have multiple angels in one of my tanks. I have large Angels together now without issue. My tang tank has 8 tangs (just lost a yellow tang somehow), a flame angel, a male blue star leopard wrasse and a couple gobies and blenny.

I will say my luck ran dry much after I left RC and velvet plagued my tanks and i too have struggled to keep ich and velvet out but I honestly think cupramine is the issue, I've switched to copper power so far it seems more effective although seems to lead to HLLE where cupramine seemed to do this less.

That's terrible. Had to deal with velvet once and it was devastating to lose so much livestock.

I've never used any copper-based medication before but I've heard great things about copper power.

I've been just using TTM for all new additions and weeks of observation afterwards.

 

[FarmerTy]

So just a quick question regarding the angels.

-emperor (6")
-flame (4")
-majestic (3")

For the potter's angel that is to be added, I have the choice of a 2" or a 3" angel. Which one should I go with to add to the tank? Should I with the smaller one or the bigger one?

 

[sc50964]

Smaller