Angry SPS. Need your opinions!

[Murraydar]

Ill make this brief. SPS do not like my aquarium. I put them in, they are ok. Within a day or so the polyps start hiding. Within a few weeks they start losing color. No polyp extension at all, no growth at all.

Ive tried different lighting levels, flow rates, placement in tank. Parameters are fine. Calcium at 420, alk 8.3, Ph 8.2. Ive tried both high and low nutrient levels. Currently they're slightly elevated (trying to finish off some dinos through dirty method) No3 is around 10 and po4 is around .05 I even bought a par meter to make sure my light is at appropiate levels.

This has been going on for about a year, I'm not swinging my parameters day by day. MOST of my "easy" corals such as zoas and leathers are okish, though their grow seems stunted too. I see zero growth on any corals with a skeleton, including LPS such as duncans.

One question I have. Can the Dinos be causing this? My issues seemed to have started before the dinos came about. At the moment it's not an epidemic, theres tiny bits on a few corals and on the sand. Most of the corals dont really seem bothered by it, not sure how bad it is for SPS. I run carbon GAC at all times.

Anyways. Can an SPS expert give me a quick list or run down on what to look for? I can give you whatever details you need. I just want to grow sticks again!

 

[happyhourhero]

What is your source water? Chloramines present in the water supply?

Have you had a triton or other ICP test done to cross out any variables that might be high from that.

How is the flow?

 

[dansreef]

Not a SPS expert.... but having suffered the dino scourge myself.... if the dinos cover your corals... then yeah.... they wont be too happy. Some dinos can be toxic. When I fought the lengthy battle.... I used to siphon dinos off of the key corals which was a losing battle. I also chased every "magic potion" or new fangled regimen with the hope the dinos will go away for good.... They never did. I also went dirty and as a result had a very large cyano bloom that I let sit for a couple of weeks. This got rid of the dinos as they don't compete well against cyano... and other nuisance algae. I got the dinos in the rearview mirror... and still things were slow to respond.

What I found...and I think the experts will chime in here with.... Stability is critical. Whether it is temp, salinity, PH, ALK, CA......etc... When things fluctuate the SPS don't respond well. When I chased the dinos with all the different "cures"....this too caused instability. When I went dirty.... also... instability. Check all of your parameters... check to see how stable they are. Do your best to remove the instability... or swings. Then be patient. It can take time.... a long time.

BTW... Nitrates at 10 and Phosphates at .05 aren't bad.... I have seen many successful SPS tanks with levels higher.... Ideally the phosphates below .05 and above 0 is better.

I hope this helps. It has for me. Good Luck.

 

[jda]

Nothing in your post stands out. Have you checked your temp probe/thermometer and refractometer lately?

Is the coralline growing and thriving? This is a good litmus for calcification.

When you say that you have tried different lights, what have you tried? Anything tried-and-true that it is hard to fail with like T5 or Metal Halide?

Do you use GFO, organic carbon, LC, NoPOX, etc?

Are you changing water?

 

[Murraydar]

What is your source water? Chloramines present in the water supply?

Have you had a triton or other ICP test done to cross out any variables that might be high from that.

How is the flow?

I use homemade RODI for top off and mixing salt. Change the prefilter and carbon block every six months and replaced the DI resin when its spent. I use seachem prime on water changes, but not top off water. I have tested my tap water for chloramines with a pool test strip and it was undetectable, but that may have changed. The carbon block removes chloramines, correct? If the carbon block is spent, will the DI resin remove chloramines? Should I dose my tank with prime / test for chloramines just to be safe?

Never had a professional test done. I use salifert, nyos and hannh for testing parameters.

Flow IMO is fine. Display is a 72 gallon and I use a maxspect gyre + return pump for flow, it will turn my tank into a tsunami if I cranked it up. Never say any different between lower or high flow rates after testing for periods of time.

 

[Murraydar]

Not a SPS expert.... but having suffered the dino scourge myself.... if the dinos cover your corals... then yeah.... they wont be too happy. Some dinos can be toxic. When I fought the lengthy battle.... I used to siphon dinos off of the key corals which was a losing battle. I also chased every "magic potion" or new fangled regimen with the hope the dinos will go away for good.... They never did. I also went dirty and as a result had a very large cyano bloom that I let sit for a couple of weeks. This got rid of the dinos as they don't compete well against cyano... and other nuisance algae. I got the dinos in the rearview mirror... and still things were slow to respond.

What I found...and I think the experts will chime in here with.... Stability is critical. Whether it is temp, salinity, PH, ALK, CA......etc... When things fluctuate the SPS don't respond well. When I chased the dinos with all the different "cures"....this too caused instability. When I went dirty.... also... instability. Check all of your parameters... check to see how stable they are. Do your best to remove the instability... or swings. Then be patient. It can take time.... a long time.

BTW... Nitrates at 10 and Phosphates at .05 aren't bad.... I have seen many successful SPS tanks with levels higher.... Ideally the phosphates below .05 and above 0 is better.

I hope this helps. It has for me. Good Luck.

Agreed on the nutrients. My dinos definitely came from me bottoming out on nutrients last year. From what Ive seen and read my nutrients should not be a problem at all.

I've been keeping my parameters very stable as Ive read that's keep for keeping SPS.

 

[Murraydar]

Nothing in your post stands out. Have you checked your temp probe/thermometer and refractometer lately?

Is the coralline growing and thriving? This is a good litmus for calcification.

When you say that you have tried different lights, what have you tried? Anything tried-and-true that it is hard to fail with like T5 or Metal Halide?

Do you use GFO, organic carbon, LC, NoPOX, etc?

Are you changing water?

I check my temperature with a fairly accurate Atkins Cooper thermometer. Temperature is controlled by a Ranco ETC 111000. Temp is extremely stable at 78 degreees. My salinity was lower for a bit (1.022) but its been at exactly 1.026 for several weeks now. Still no improvement or change in anything though.

Coralline grows , though not as fast as it used to. My back wall has seen zero growth in ages. I only get it on plastic pieces. My rocks have it, though they're not super purple like some tanks.

I switched to LED lights last year. I have a reef breeder photon 48 v2, which is incredibly bright, but I use a Seneye par meter to dial my par levels in. My SPS are getting around 250 par right now, more or less. I used to have an ATI six bulb which grew SPS great. However, my issues seem to have started before I changed lights. I've tried both lower and high par levels on the sps with no noticable changes.

I do no use GFO, organic carbon or NoPox. I did use all of those like four months ago when I was trying to get my nutrients down. I bottomed out on phosphates which I believe caused my dino bloom. Since then Ive ditched all those and use a turf scrubber and skimmer for filtration, which works great.

I am changing water, though less frequently as it supposedly increases dinos. I do change it anyways though.

 

[jda]

1.022 could account for a lot of this. It is good that you got it up, but it could take more than a few weeks to see results. SPS are quick to go downhill and very slow to come back.

IMO, parameters have to be spot-on for most acropora to thrive under LED whereas you can have a bit more tolerance under other light sources. 250 PAR is not a lot, but should not be death either - I only keep the deep waters at this low and like to have everything else at 350+. If you still have the ATI, I would put it back on and eliminate a variable, but this is probably a nit.

You have been changing a lot of stuff, so perhaps just sit tight and keep on changing some water and see if stuff comes back.

 

[Murraydar]

1.022 could account for a lot of this. It is good that you got it up, but it could take more than a few weeks to see results. SPS are quick to go downhill and very slow to come back.

IMO, parameters have to be spot-on for most acropora to thrive under LED whereas you can have a bit more tolerance under other light sources. 250 PAR is not a lot, but should not be death either - I only keep the deep waters at this low and like to have everything else at 350+. If you still have the ATI, I would put it back on and eliminate a variable, but this is probably a nit.

You have been changing a lot of stuff, so perhaps just sit tight and keep on changing some water and see if stuff comes back.

Agreed, I have changed stuff in the past out of desperation and atm I'm trying to keep my tank rock steady. I dunno - I just have this strange feeling in my gut that something is off. Two years ago I was growing duncans, birdsnest, stylos, acros like gangbusters. Now nothing grows at all. My LPS are alive but completely stagnant. I got a colt coral recently and its just bunched up in an angry little ball. My bubble tip anenomes are a third of the size they used to be, they extend or puff up as much as they used to.

 

[Reef Jeff]

I'm no expert on this, but just a thought. Did any of your tank's materials like live rock, pumps, anything ever get exposed to copper medications? I had a friend with similar issues and it turned out he had copper in his water most likely leaching from rock that he got from a previous fish only system.

 

[jda]

What do you have the RB set to? They can really burn coral with bad spectrum from the whites - they need to be kept very low.

More water changes are good.

 

[Murraydar]

I'm no expert on this, but just a thought. Did any of your tank's materials like live rock, pumps, anything ever get exposed to copper medications? I had a friend with similar issues and it turned out he had copper in his water most likely leaching from rock that he got from a previous fish only system.

No copper ever. Running cuprisorb and polyfilter right now actually, just to make sure theres no heavy metal contamination.

What do you have the RB set to? They can really burn coral with bad spectrum from the whites - they need to be kept very low.

More water changes are good.

My whites are at like 20 percent at its highest intensity, blues around 60 percent. I have heard that the whites on these are super intense. Do you think this would be too high? I can always change to pure blues for a while and see if theres a difference.

 

[jda]

20% might be OK. They are not too intense, they have peaks that are harmful... they are not good diodes. The coral has to fight off the bad waves and this takes energy.... this is true of the high peaks in blues too, but not to the same degree. This is why most acros have to otherwise be perfect to thrive with this type of light coming it. The softies are strange... while the same things apply, they don't seem to really have to work too hard to fight stuff off and they can tolerate a wider swath of parameters.

Do you have the ATIs still that you can put back on?

Copper is almost always a red herring in tanks with aragonite. The aragonite will bind it and it stays bound until the aragonite melts until it is quickly grabbed by other aragonite structure. Then some copper is bound to organics almost instantly and is skimmed out or captured in GAC. Without constant introduction, copper is rendered meaningless in a reef tank - this is why treatment tanks have no sand, rock, GAC or skimmers.

 

[Murraydar]

20% might be OK. They are not too intense, they have peaks that are harmful... they are not good diodes. The coral has to fight off the bad waves and this takes energy.... this is true of the high peaks in blues too, but not to the same degree. This is why most acros have to otherwise be perfect to thrive with this type of light coming it. The softies are strange... while the same things apply, they don't seem to really have to work too hard to fight stuff off and they can tolerate a wider swath of parameters.

Do you have the ATIs still that you can put back on?

Copper is almost always a red herring in tanks with aragonite. The aragonite will bind it and it stays bound until the aragonite melts until it is quickly grabbed by other aragonite structure. Then some copper is bound to organics almost instantly and is skimmed out or captured in GAC. Without constant introduction, copper is rendered meaningless in a reef tank - this is why treatment tanks have no sand, rock, GAC or skimmers.

I don't have the lights unfortunately. Ill look into the white led intensity and see if that may be causing issues.

 

[Skynyrd Fish]

I would consider a Triton or ATI test. I like the ATI because it will test your RO. This will give you a baseline for what is happening now and will give recommendations for change if needed.

 

[Murraydar]

Heres some pics just for the hell of it. You can see some happy corals. Some pics you can see tiny strands of dino. Theres two pics of sps where the colors are clearly washed out from what they were when I bought them and zero polyp extension on most. I moved them to the center from my side frag rack just in case they weren't getting enough light. They were sitting on it for two weeks and getting worse, so I figured I may as well try re positioning.

 

[gig 'em]

A Triton test wouldn't hurt to identify any major component that is out of line. Personally I've never discovered any issues through a Triton test, but it could be helpful to indicate if anything is too high or too low. Have you inspected all magnets in the tank to make sure none have cracked or swollen? Anything that can be leaching into the tank would be one of the first things I look for. Have you performed a large water change and seen a positive response in the SPS?

How old is your tank and did you start with nothing but dry rock?

 

[markalot]

I don't see any algae at all, so my haphazard guess is lack of food bits in the water is an issue, the acros are starving.

 

[Chris Graham]

Agreed, I have changed stuff in the past out of desperation and atm I'm trying to keep my tank rock steady. I dunno - I just have this strange feeling in my gut that something is off. Two years ago I was growing duncans, birdsnest, stylos, acros like gangbusters. Now nothing grows at all. My LPS are alive but completely stagnant. I got a colt coral recently and its just bunched up in an angry little ball. My bubble tip anenomes are a third of the size they used to be, they extend or puff up as much as they used to.

I am in a very similar situation.... Corals alive but no noticeable growth:-/

I want to get a ICP test to see if anything outside of the standard hobby test is way high or low. I have been trying to keep everything rock solid but still have not seen much improvement. And I would like to know how "stability" is defined for all the parameters?? All the parameters fluctuate some during the daily cycles but what is stable and what is too much fluctuation? I can show daily temp and pH fluctuations on my Apex but is 1-2 degrees in temp and .1-.2 tenths of pH too much or normal?? Maybe Neptune Apex members could post the fluctuations of successful tanks to show others what is acceptable and what isn't.

 

[markalot]

I am in a very similar situation.... Corals alive but no noticeable growth:-/

I want to get a ICP test to see if anything outside of the standard hobby test is way high or low. I have been trying to keep everything rock solid but still have not seen much improvement. And I would like to know how "stability" is defined for all the parameters?? All the parameters fluctuate some during the daily cycles but what is stable and what is too much fluctuation? I can show daily temp and pH fluctuations on my Apex but is 1-2 degrees in temp and .1-.2 tenths of pH too much or normal?? Maybe Neptune Apex members could post the fluctuations of successful tanks to show others what is acceptable and what isn't.

PH Fluctuation can generally be ignored. For me the most important are KH and PO4, others are less important as long as in range. Always avoid big swings in anything, but KH spikes or rapid PO4 drops can kill fast. My temp has fluctuated 4 to 5 degrees on some colder nights, apparently my heater is only good if the basement temp is > 65F. No damage, no noticeable issues, no loss in color. My PH is 7.9 at night, 8.4 durign the day. I haven't calibrated the PH meter in a long time so exact numbers unknown.

If everything is stable but nutrients are very low (newer tank or overuse of GFO) then look at your KH. It needs to be in the 6.7 to 7.5 range for SPS to do well, and you will want to feed a little each day to keep the SPS fed. If it's an older tank, like over a year, then the sponge growth and other good inhabitants are probably enough to keep food in the water most of the time, as long as you aren't stripping the water of nutrients. IMO and experience for my tank anyway. SPS have tiny mouths and do not do well when there's no food in the water column. Having ultra low nutrients appears to exacerbate the problem.