another fresh water question: my *future* 40g tank

[NotFishyFishGuy]

hey guys ive been planning on getting a 40g freshwater tank for a while and now im about to order the tank. originally, I planned on getting the cobalt aquatics, c vue 40 gallon aquarium because it was an all in one, perfect size, and was a long, shallow tank. However, they are all out of stock and I emailed customer service and they said it might be in stock in a month, but my fish are really outgrowing the tank and have been for a few months. Now, I have decided on the innovative marine nuvo fusion 40 gallon with one or two ai prime hd freshwater lights (don't know how many I should get, please help me with this in the thread). I have all the stocking plans and will have them in the bottom of this post or in one of the replies. my problem now is with the refugium. I want a hang on back refugium but the ones sold by cpr are insanely expensive and I don't really want to go DIY. I know it would be easier to set it up in a sump, but I ve never had a sump before and I think they are pretty expensive unless I diy but don't have like drills or saws to cut and stuff. I also am not sure what I am going to put into the refugium but I have a few ideas in mind including nay hardy and fast rowing plants and some shrimp and snails possibly. also don't know what refugium light to get. AI is too expensive for me and so is kessil and e shopps curve and also pricey. was thinking of finding something cheap on amazon, but most seem to be for saltwater macroalgae. thanks in advance for helping and I am in a rush so my spelling is probably bad ill try to fix what I can.

 

[Etmanning]

This is a sweater forum so you would probably do better to be asking these questions in a freshwater forum.

Nobody runs refugiums on freshwater tanks. You're growing ppants in the main tank so why have a separate one that does the same thing?

Same with sumps, pretty much unnessecary for freshwater systems. Just run a HOB filter and a heater in the tank.

Some cheap eBay LEDs or T5s will be more than you need to grow low to moderate difficulty plants.

Good luck with it!

 

[NotFishyFishGuy]

This is a sweater forum so you would probably do better to be asking these questions in a freshwater forum.

Nobody runs refugiums on freshwater tanks. You're growing ppants in the main tank so why have a separate one that does the same thing?

Same with sumps, pretty much unnessecary for freshwater systems. Just run a HOB filter and a heater in the tank.

Some cheap eBay LEDs or T5s will be more than you need to grow low to moderate difficulty plants.

Good luck with it!

hey thanks for replying. I know this is a saltwater forum but other forums aren't as helpful. I find that r2r is a better place to ask questions. I have asked a freshwater question before and got pretty good answers on r2r. I have seen a lot of people online with freshweater refugiums. for me, it would serve as a place to grow plants that are fast growing and hardy and would take away nutrients for algae, a place for me to grow out some snails to put in the display and to feed some puffers I may get, and as a place for injured and baby fish. could you send me a link to a light that would work on freshwater plants? I used to use cheap LEDs on my 10g and the plants (mostly) stayed alive. then I got a hardy to care for plant and the plant started dying. I upgraded to a dennerle power LED and now it is doing great and so are my other plants. they are actually growing now, as opposed to before, when they would just stay alive. what I am worried about is that the cheap LED may not be enough for the plants. yeah a sump is unnessecary fo ra freshwater system, but would be a great place for me to put a refugium, hide equipment, add on to water volume, and keep injured fish.

 

[Gareth elliott]

I would not use a sump type filter on a planted unless you have mitigated the decrease in co2 in the display. Some methods of this are semi sealed wet/dry, or automatic carbon injection system. Using something like a scientific american or Milwaukee ph controller.

Use very diffuse form of outflow if you this route, the more surface agitation the more co2 will escape. Like a spray bar

 

[NotFishyFishGuy]

I would not use a sump type filter on a planted unless you have mitigated the decrease in co2 in the display. Some methods of this are semi sealed wet/dry, or automatic carbon injection system. Using something like a scientific american or Milwaukee ph controller.

Use very diffuse form of outflow if you this route, the more surface agitation the more co2 will escape. Like a spray bar

I’m sort of new to the whole co2 stuff. Never owned a co2 set. Could you explain a little more? I plan on getting a fluval co2 system. Thanks.

 

[Gareth elliott]

To best describe.
Lights are gas pedal of plant growth.
Co2 is the gasoline.
There must always be co2 present during the photo period, or your lights will only grow algae.

There are macro and micronutrients that are also required(unlike a reef tank a water change will not add any of these to an appreciable density. You have to add these to the tank or sand bed.
Some aquatic plants absorb from the water others through their roots from the substrate.

 

[Gareth elliott]

I use a semi automatic system(timer based).

There is a regulator that controls the co2 and a solenoid that allows the co2 to enter the aquarium, you do not need to dose at night.

So when lights come on so does the co2, and same when they go off.

 

[NotFishyFishGuy]

I use a semi automatic system(timer based).

There is a regulator that controls the co2 and a solenoid that allows the co2 to enter the aquarium, you do not need to dose at night.

So when lights come on so does the co2, and same when they go off.

Ok so I’ll get my co2 on the same timer as the light. Is the fluval co2 ok? For the substrate I was planning on using Dennerle 6 in 1

 

[Gareth elliott]

The fluval is a bit expensive to refill for me.

Have to buy new cylinders when ever empty. Mine i take the 5lb cylinder to a liquor store and exchange for a full one for $10.

Look at something like

https://www.marinedepot.com/Deluxe_...uariums-House_Brand_(CO2)-CO2K-FICOCY-vi.html

 

[NotFishyFishGuy]

The fluval is a bit expensive to refill for me.

Have to buy new cylinders when ever empty. Mine i take the 5lb cylinder to a liquor store and exchange for a full one for $10.

Look at something like

https://www.marinedepot.com/Deluxe_...uariums-House_Brand_(CO2)-CO2K-FICOCY-vi.html

The one you sent is one that can be refilled? Do you think any LFS would refill?

 

[Gareth elliott]

Restaurant supply store if have one near may as well. Not sure on the lfs i know ive never seen one that did. Mind you i dont have an lfs near me that sells plants anymore(not buying plants from petco [emoji23])

 

[NotFishyFishGuy]

Restaurant supply store if have one near may as well. Not sure on the lfs i know ive never seen one that did. Mind you i dont have an lfs near me that sells plants anymore(not buying plants from petco [emoji23])

I’ll check around and see what I can find. I actually only have one LFS that sells plants. And I thought I had it bad[emoji23]. Anyways, before I started asking you about co2, you were telling me why not to get a sump for my tank. I was thinking about getting the NUVO EXT 40g if I decided to get a sump

 

[Gareth elliott]

Air water contact will lower co2 concentration in the water. So as water trickles over baffles, down an overflow etc the gas you are injecting is being let out into the air.

 

[Gareth elliott]

I use 2 small powerheads on one side towards the bottom of the tank and a canister filter with a spray bar.

Not the greatest planted aquarium but its mine [emoji23]

 

[NotFishyFishGuy]

I use 2 small powerheads on one side towards the bottom of the tank and a canister filter with a spray bar.

Not the greatest planted aquarium but its mine [emoji23]

Several questions: if I got the NUVO fusion 40, I am probably going to also get a canister filter as an extra filter. Do you still use the sump as filtration or as refugium or both? Why do you use the powerhead and spray bar?

 

[Gareth elliott]

Power heads serve 2 purposes.

1). Create a river unidirectional flow pattern towards the filter intake. Fw fish live in rivers or lakes that do not have the turbulent flow of the ocean. Why only one side. The spray bar allows the output of the filter to be spread out over a foot decreasing surface agitation
2). Placing the co2 near one of the power heads it further breaks down the bubbles smaller increasing likelihood will dissolve not escape up.

I do not use a sump on here.

Only time i have used a sump was with SA cichlids and i used emerged plants as a nutrient control since live plants could not go in the display as the species dug too much.

This particular tank is about 7 or 8 years old.

 

[NotFishyFishGuy]

Power heads serve 2 purposes.

1). Create a river unidirectional flow pattern towards the filter intake. Fw fish live in rivers or lakes that do not have the turbulent flow of the ocean. Why only one side. The spray bar allows the output of the filter to be spread out over a foot decreasing surface agitation
2). Placing the co2 near one of the power heads it further breaks down the bubbles smaller increasing likelihood will dissolve not escape up.

I do not use a sump on here.

Only time i have used a sump was with SA cichlids and i used emerged plants as a nutrient control since live plants could not go in the display as the species dug too much.

This particular tank is about 7 or 8 years old.

So you don’t have an overflow on this tank?

 

[OutsideBrian]

Looks like your getting pointed on the right direction already. Have you found the planted tank forum, search for it in Tapatalk. Just like r2r only fw planted tanks

 

[Dkeller_nc]

NotFishy -

A few things to think about (I kept freshwater for about 40 years): First, realize that there are multiple niches in the freshwater hobby, just as there are in saltwater. You can setup a fresh, soft water system for various amazon, indonesian and equitorial african fish with virtually no equipment. You only require a tank, stand, light, heater, and filter. Typically, those of that keep these kinds of tanks choose a cannister filter because of its capacity and lower disturbance of the air-water interface. But a hagen aquaclear HOB is also a decent choice.

Virtually no one has a drilled tank and a sump on a freshwater system, and fewer still with a refugium. There are several reasons for this, but one of the big ones is that you don't need and don't want a skimmer (a primary motivation for a salt tank having a sump), and you will be constantly clearing the overflow of plant leaves, roots, and other things. So my advice to you is simply say "no". Don't get an AIO either for the same reason. A simple rimmed aquarium that you can pick up at Petco's dollar a gallon sale will make a superb freshwater system. If you want to go a little fancy, a sapphire-glass rimless tank would be an upgrade.

Next, you should really do some research on what you want to do with the tank. For a fair number of folks, their main goal is an uber garden of plants; the fish are just a decorative accessory. A niche of even that niche is "landscape" tanks. These are tanks that are very carefully constructed for photographs, and the plants are arranged in such a way as to resemble grass, bushes and trees. Some of these actually have sand waterfalls in them. Again, fish are an after-thought decorative accessory.

I'm telling you this because if your objective is to have some plants for an environment for the fish, that's a gigantically different endeavor than the "plants are the main thing" or "landscape" tank that I described above. To grow nice plants for the fish environment, you need a T5HO fixture (do not get an LED fixture!), a canister filter (most choose eheim), a heater, a plastic rimmed tank, a stand, some sand, a bit of substrate to put underneath the sand to root the plants in, and some rocks and/or driftwood of your choice. That's it. If you're new to freshwater, I'd strongly encourage you to go with the exactly this setup.

If you choose the "landscape" or "plants are the main thing" route, things get gigantically more complicated in a big hurry. If you think saltwater water chemistry was complex, wait until you read a bit about optimal plant growth, and balancing NPK nutrients very precisely along with CO2. And we haven't begun to talk trace elements. You'll have to take my word for it, but after keeping both planted tanks and reef tanks for many years, the truly "planted tank" keeping is considerably more complex by a longshot. And while the kind of simple freshwater tank that I described above is fairly hassle-free (though all tanks have maintenance requirements), a "planted tank" is a monster with respect to maintenance and fussing with it. A "landscape" tank is even more work.

I'm not trying to discourage you - landscape tanks like those presented in the International Aquascape Competition are truly a sight to behold, but they do require a lot of work.

 

[NotFishyFishGuy]

NotFishy -

A few things to think about (I kept freshwater for about 40 years): First, realize that there are multiple niches in the freshwater hobby, just as there are in saltwater. You can setup a fresh, soft water system for various amazon, indonesian and equitorial african fish with virtually no equipment. You only require a tank, stand, light, heater, and filter. Typically, those of that keep these kinds of tanks choose a cannister filter because of its capacity and lower disturbance of the air-water interface. But a hagen aquaclear HOB is also a decent choice.

Virtually no one has a drilled tank and a sump on a freshwater system, and fewer still with a refugium. There are several reasons for this, but one of the big ones is that you don't need and don't want a skimmer (a primary motivation for a salt tank having a sump), and you will be constantly clearing the overflow of plant leaves, roots, and other things. So my advice to you is simply say "no". Don't get an AIO either for the same reason. A simple rimmed aquarium that you can pick up at Petco's dollar a gallon sale will make a superb freshwater system. If you want to go a little fancy, a sapphire-glass rimless tank would be an upgrade.

Next, you should really do some research on what you want to do with the tank. For a fair number of folks, their main goal is an uber garden of plants; the fish are just a decorative accessory. A niche of even that niche is "landscape" tanks. These are tanks that are very carefully constructed for photographs, and the plants are arranged in such a way as to resemble grass, bushes and trees. Some of these actually have sand waterfalls in them. Again, fish are an after-thought decorative accessory.

I'm telling you this because if your objective is to have some plants for an environment for the fish, that's a gigantically different endeavor than the "plants are the main thing" or "landscape" tank that I described above. To grow nice plants for the fish environment, you need a T5HO fixture (do not get an LED fixture!), a canister filter (most choose eheim), a heater, a plastic rimmed tank, a stand, some sand, a bit of substrate to put underneath the sand to root the plants in, and some rocks and/or driftwood of your choice. That's it. If you're new to freshwater, I'd strongly encourage you to go with the exactly this setup.

If you choose the "landscape" or "plants are the main thing" route, things get gigantically more complicated in a big hurry. If you think saltwater water chemistry was complex, wait until you read a bit about optimal plant growth, and balancing NPK nutrients very precisely along with CO2. And we haven't begun to talk trace elements. You'll have to take my word for it, but after keeping both planted tanks and reef tanks for many years, the truly "planted tank" keeping is considerably more complex by a longshot. And while the kind of simple freshwater tank that I described above is fairly hassle-free (though all tanks have maintenance requirements), a "planted tank" is a monster with respect to maintenance and fussing with it. A "landscape" tank is even more work.

I'm not trying to discourage you - landscape tanks like those presented in the International Aquascape Competition are truly a sight to behold, but they do require a lot of work.

So the only “planted” tank I pace kept before was my 10g with a few plants that I put in. I have a HOB filter, heater, and light and that’s it. What if I got a canister filter with the AIO tank? Or should I just go for a rimless and run canisters on it? Have you done these types of tanks?